Blood Redemption for Jews?

Zioneer

Banned
What if medieval Christians were just a bit softer towards the Jews, and allowed them into more professions then just moneylending and banking; on one condition: that they eventually repay their betrayal of Christ in their own blood?

For example, they would be allowed into armies, and if they died in the line of battle, they would be considered true "Christians", and if they died in service to Christians in other occupations (guards, civil servants, etc), then they and their families would be "absolved" of their sins towards Christ.

Would this work in any way? Did it happen in OTL?
 

Keenir

Banned
What if medieval Christians were just a bit softer towards the Jews, and allowed them into more professions then just moneylending and banking; on one condition: that they eventually repay their betrayal of Christ in their own blood?

not sure that would result in any softer treatment.

even when Jews accepted Jesus as their savior, they were still considered Jews & thus fair targets. (look at the Inquisition)
 
From a strictly economic viewpoint, having a disenfranchised money holding class was great; European history is littered with Christian debtors defaulting on their Jewish creditors; often times, the debtors would be kings or states. Affording Jews more rights simply doesn't make sense.
 

Zioneer

Banned
not sure that would result in any softer treatment.

even when Jews accepted Jesus as their savior, they were still considered Jews & thus fair targets. (look at the Inquisition)

No no no, I didn't mean conversion, I meant that even if they were considered heathens, if they gave their lives in the service of a Christian, they would be posthumously considered a Christian/redeemed.
 

Cook

Banned
We need someone that’s an expert on that era commenting here.
Wasn’t there nearly a 1000 years of relatively peaceful coexistence between the two communities before things went down the toilet?
 

Keenir

Banned
Wasn’t there nearly a 1000 years of relatively peaceful coexistence between the two communities before things went down the toilet?

that's Dar-al-Islam, not Christendom.


No no no, I didn't mean conversion, I meant that even if they were considered heathens, if they gave their lives in the service of a Christian, they would be posthumously considered a Christian/redeemed.

pretty sure Christianity doesn't work like that. most folks in teh Middle Ages were either baptized right after birth (to handle the Original Sin) and-or right before death (so there's no way to sin again after being baptized)

once someone's dead, their soul's already gone to where it's going.


and the Jews weren't considered Heathens - that would've been an improvement. no, the Jews were considered murderers most foul (the passage "on our heads and on our childrens heads" was not idle Biblical talk)
 

Cook

Banned
that's Dar-al-Islam, not Christendom.

No, I’m pretty sure I was talking about the two communities in Europe.

I seem to remember a documentary that said relations between the two communities were pretty amicable right up to the Reconquista and Inquisition, hence the enquiry.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
No, I’m pretty sure I was talking about the two communities in Europe.

I seem to remember a documentary that said relations between the two communities were pretty amicable right up to the Reconquista and Inquisition, hence the enquiry.
Umm...then that documentary was very, very wrong. Christians were basically never nice to the Jews for...most of history. There are a lot of incidents prior to the Reconquista. Byzantine Emperors occasionally persecuted Jews, and they were always disenfranchised by law both in Byzantium and in the rest of Europe. Then of course there were the various expulsions, and nasty incidents like York Castle and the various pogroms occurring around the time of the Crusades (and really whenever the Christians felt like it). Archbishops calling Jews the "sons of darkness" as early as the early 800s didn't really help either.

No no no, I didn't mean conversion, I meant that even if they were considered heathens, if they gave their lives in the service of a Christian, they would be posthumously considered a Christian/redeemed.
A belief like that scares the hell out of me. It really opens up a window for things like conscripting/using Jews as meat shields during combat since, after all, you're "saving their souls." No, no, the idea of posthumous salvation in any religion is really creepy and frankly perverse.
 
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Cook

Banned
...Christians were basically never nice to the Jews for...most of history.


Thankyou.

...
A belief like that scares the hell out of me. It really opens up a window for things like conscripting/using Jews as meat shields during combat since, after all, you're "saving their souls." No, no, the idea of posthumous salvation in any religion is a really creepy and frankly perverse.


Creepy and frankly perverse, surprising it didn’t catch on then.
Seriously.
 
Theologically, I don't think that's feasible. You can't buy redemption with anything, youcan just accept or reject it. But there are a few other ways that the relations could become less stressed and the Jews' lives easier. Frex, there was a school of thought that held the Jews were still under the Old Covenant and thus saved. there was no point converting them or doing anything about their exxistence, they were simply immaterial for Christendom. If that gained wider currency, it might have a positive effect. It'll still not make things nice because Christianity doesn't really have a theological niche for other faiths, but almost anything would be an improvement.
 
Theologically, I don't think that's feasible. You can't buy redemption with anything, youcan just accept or reject it. But there are a few other ways that the relations could become less stressed and the Jews' lives easier. Frex, there was a school of thought that held the Jews were still under the Old Covenant and thus saved. there was no point converting them or doing anything about their exxistence, they were simply immaterial for Christendom. If that gained wider currency, it might have a positive effect. It'll still not make things nice because Christianity doesn't really have a theological niche for other faiths, but almost anything would be an improvement.
I'm not sure if such a belief would be accepted by the general populace. Pope after Pope kept telling them to just stop lighting them on fire under threat of excommunication but it didn't seem to help one iota.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis
 
I'm not sure if such a belief would be accepted by the general populace. Pope after Pope kept telling them to just stop lighting them on fire under threat of excommunication but it didn't seem to help one iota.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis

What really didn't help is that while some of the Popes insisted the Jews be left alone, other strongly favored forcing them all to convert at the tip of a sword.

The fact that the bull was largely unenforced (and unenforceable for that matter) didn't help things one bit.
 
Nor were converts from Judaism the only ones liable to extreme risk under Christianity.

The Inquisition played a major role in destroying Spain economically by the murder of nearly half a million Moriscos, descended from Muslims who had converted to Christianity.
 

Zioneer

Banned
A belief like that scares the hell out of me. It really opens up a window for things like conscripting/using Jews as meat shields during combat since, after all, you're "saving their souls." No, no, the idea of posthumous salvation in any religion is really creepy and frankly perverse.

That's the idea, yes. It's supposed to be creepy and misguided. But would the Christians that support it think so?

Theologically, I don't think that's feasible. You can't buy redemption with anything, youcan just accept or reject it. But there are a few other ways that the relations could become less stressed and the Jews' lives easier. Frex, there was a school of thought that held the Jews were still under the Old Covenant and thus saved. there was no point converting them or doing anything about their existence, they were simply immaterial for Christendom. If that gained wider currency, it might have a positive effect. It'll still not make things nice because Christianity doesn't really have a theological niche for other faiths, but almost anything would be an improvement.

What was the school of thought that held that the Jews were saved already if they held to the Old Covenant? I would like to know; perhaps I can base a TL off of that, rather then my apparently impossible (and horrible) "Blood Redemption" idea.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Your best bet may be to have Christian Apocatastasis be more influential.

Oh, okay. I'll look into that.

One last question. Is there any way to change the Jewish religion enough that most of it's leaders "adopt" more then just the ruling class of certain kingdoms/empires? Ala Khazars, but completely removing the paganism?
 

Philip

Donor
One last question. Is there any way to change the Jewish religion enough that most of it's leaders "adopt" more then just the ruling class of certain kingdoms/empires? Ala Khazars, but completely removing the paganism?

I don't think it is necessary to change the religion to do that. Just give it time. If the ruling class converts and gives political preference to those who convert, the majority of the population will follow.
 
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