Bleiben wir doch treu - A Surviving Third Reich

Lumsden

Banned
[NB This post will be edited once the exact divergence is decided on]

An alternate 'Nazi Victory' timeline - I would like advice on the possibility of a surviving (not necessarily victorious) Third Reich (actually recognisable as such) after the Second World War.

The one most often put forward is the July 20th bombing plot being a success - certainly von Stauffenberg wanted a negotiated peace with the Western powers and that might have been enough to save the Reich and both he and Schulenberg wanted to retain the Reich as it had been before, according to Gisevius ''they would paint the ship of state a military gray and set it afloat again''.

Certainly, Hitler might well be killed, but whether or not the coup is a success is another matter.

What sort of borders would we see for what I shall call Stauffenberg's Reich? I assume we would see western borders (bearing in mind this is '44), as Germany still has at the time of the Plot the whole of France, we might see 1936 borders or at a stretch Alsace-Lorraine. I expect Germany would be allowed to keep all of her other western gains - Schleswig, for instance.
europe_1944.jpg



As for the East, that is where it all would turn. In '44, according to this map, German armies were still deep in Russia although they were being pushed back. The question really hinges on whether or not the Western powers would be willing to fight alongside Stauffenberg against Stalin (which might lead to considerable Eastern borders for the Reich as a bulwark against Communism, maybe even as far as the borders of 1939 e.g. (although probably less Bialystok, the Italian territories and possibly less the General Government). What do you think?
Greater_German_Reich_NS_Administration_1944.png
 
I doubt the Allies would tolerate this sort of Germany, especially with the risk of round 3 coming up. Nothing short of fixing the Nazi leadership's heads on pikes at red square was going to sate their desire to crush Germany.

What makes this even scarier is if a few years down the line, WW3 does start in Europe and the USSR/Germany come to nuclear blows. :eek:
 

sharlin

Banned
Poland would be freed as a proviso i'd say, the Soviets would want their territory back, but sans what they grabbed off Poland. De-militarisation of the Heer and SS, war crimes for those involved in the Final Solution etc, occupied countries freed.

The US/UK would not go 'Change of leadership! Sweet lets be friends and let you keep everything you have okay.' Simply impossible from a political standpoint.

Nice maps by the way ;)
 
By 1944 there is no way for a surviving third reich.

The agreement was already in place to divide Germany into spheres of influence..

By 1944 the USSR were not able to be stopped by the Nazis.

You need a far earlier POD before US entry into the war.

perhaps have Hitler having a stroke after the conquest of France if that included the destruction of the BEF and the French army then Churchill could have faced a hostile war cabinet especially if the new government offered an easy peace.

Any POD after 1942 isn't really possible unless skip the ASB or magic becomes involved.
 
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