Black mans burden

The problem, I think, with a (sub-Saharan) African state becoming a European-like power is that there's no need for them to. Allow me to explain:

Africa is a vast vast vast vast continent with loads of resources and space.

Europe, by comparison, is a smaller continent with less resources and space.

That lack of space and resources pushed Europeans to explore the seas -in order to find resources and areas to live.

It's highly unlikely an African state would put effort into European-style overseas colonization since there's so much more space/resources right in Africa to exploit.

Therefore, any African power is going to expand inwards to the continent, not overseas. So you're not going to get a world-spanning (sub-Saharan) African power. That being said, you can certainly get some land based African great powers that can push away foreign encroachment. Contrary to popular opinion, the Industrial Revolution is not something that has to start in Europe or China.
 
Challange make african states the dominant powers of the world. In this TL africa is like western europe while asia europe etc are like africa

The first thing to do is select a region that makes sense. Instead of sayin gAfrica, let's look at the Great Lakes Region/East Africa/Horn of Africa.

Here you have proven trade ties (think King Soloman and Queen of Sheba). Second you have outstanding agricultural land to support a large population (Ethiopian Empire throughout the ages) and proximity (as far down as Madagascar Indian Ocean traders formed a network later taken up by Yemeni Merchants.

So, assuming some geopolitical entity ranging from Ethiopia down to Tanzania with inroads encompassing the Great LAkes, you have your people. Let's assume that (a) a bit more trade was engaged in by this empire due to their stability and complexity and ability to project outward rather than warring internally, and the idea that (b) after empirical consolidation - say by the first few centuries of the modern era - a surplus of military needed to be vented off (like Spain after the inquisition needed something to do with all those men under arms) and they sent some military personnel along with trading voyages ... first to Arabia, then to South Asia, and eventually to E. Asia.

In time these voyages would spark the imagination, especially if this Rift Valley Empire was able to conquer some significant territory - ala Goa in OTL perhaps? Combine this with trade with China and the faster spread of gun powder and you (a) overcome the very real north/south versus east/west obstacles to the trade of ideas, and (b) provide Africa with the ability to arive at Europe's doorstep sometime in the second millenium and march on Europe.

Just some thoughts. But that is how I see it happening. I cannot easily imagine it coming from West Africa due to remoteness.
 
The problem, I think, with a (sub-Saharan) African state becoming a European-like power is that there's no need for them to. Allow me to explain:

Africa is a vast vast vast vast continent with loads of resources and space.

Europe, by comparison, is a smaller continent with less resources and space.

That lack of space and resources pushed Europeans to explore the seas -in order to find resources and areas to live.

It's highly unlikely an African state would put effort into European-style overseas colonization since there's so much more space/resources right in Africa to exploit.

Therefore, any African power is going to expand inwards to the continent, not overseas. So you're not going to get a world-spanning (sub-Saharan) African power. That being said, you can certainly get some land based African great powers that can push away foreign encroachment. Contrary to popular opinion, the Industrial Revolution is not something that has to start in Europe or China.

I have to disagree with your thesis. What pushed Europe outward was the fact that Spain, after the requonquista, had a surplus of soldiers. By harnessing their energy outward, the monarchy did not risk insurrection at home. Couple this with the fact that once Portugal and Spain found lands new to the minds of Europe, other nations were forced to follow suit both to sate the imagination and to avoid falling behind Iberia's newfound riches.

Quite simply, if Spain had failed in the requonquista, or if it lasted another century and other European powers had engaged in this European conflict (like a new crusades) and/or an easter/central european power had been able to dominate at the same time (Polish Lithuanian Empire) I don't see them casting their eyes to the sea any time soon. In fact - all the powers prior to the reconquista could have engaged in the same behavior but did not, even those in the mediterranea with significant seafaring experience.

It wasn't resources, it was demographics an internal political consolidation.
 

ingemann

Banned
I dont post much on AH i rather read the many excellent TLs on here but it always distrubs me when i see what ifs about Africa developing powerful empires on par with European and Asian and this idea is usually dismissed by arguments based on two points. 1. The climate of Africa doesn't lend to supporting large modern states or 2. the level of technology doesn't lend to this.

People tend to forget Africa has supported many empires that during their particular time were 1st tier powers.

The various sultanates in Egypt, Fatimids, Mamluks

The Almoravids and Almohads of North Africa

The Ghanaian, Malian and Songhay Empires

There have also been several states who had a chance to modernize successfully, Asante, Benin, Yoruba, Ethiopia

The massive power disparity between african and european states becomes visible at the industrial revolution, you have to get an African state to pull off a meiji type modernization or have one maintain close enough contact with Europe to advance at a similar pace. To the idea of having Africa swap places with Europe and Asia well so many changes have to be made to history i dont know where to even start.

None of those states could have pulled a Meiji.

The problem with the great African states was that those states wealth mostly build on the slave trade (Egypt the least). Beside the moral aspect of slave trade, it also have quite ugly consequence for the structures of the countries exporting slaves. Slave export mean that a state have access to a easy source of capital, meaning that they can import products from abroad, rather than develop the manufactoring to produce them at home.
When japan turned into such a success, it was because they saw native manufactoring not only as necessary, but also as virtue, it was something it had in common with much of northern Europe, which suffered from permanent BOP deficit, which made the development of export oriented manufactoring necessary.
If people want to create a African centre of civilisation, they can just as well start with choke the existing empire of Africa to death first, and set up states, whose main exports was labour intensive and demanded vast infrastructur.
 
None of those states could have pulled a Meiji.

The problem with the great African states was that those states wealth mostly build on the slave trade (Egypt the least). Beside the moral aspect of slave trade, it also have quite ugly consequence for the structures of the countries exporting slaves. Slave export mean that a state have access to a easy source of capital, meaning that they can import products from abroad, rather than develop the manufactoring to produce them at home.
When japan turned into such a success, it was because they saw native manufactoring not only as necessary, but also as virtue, it was something it had in common with much of northern Europe, which suffered from permanent BOP deficit, which made the development of export oriented manufactoring necessary.
If people want to create a African centre of civilisation, they can just as well start with choke the existing empire of Africa to death first, and set up states, whose main exports was labour intensive and demanded vast infrastructur.

Agreed - there is this general notion that the OTL African Empires had the potential of our OTL great powers (India, China, Japan, Spain, England, et al). They didn't - otherwise they would have been listed above along with OTL great powers. These empires were isolated which allowed them to form and survive with little local competition in a time when supply lines needed to be measured in miles per day, not hours or minutes. Even Alexander the Great and the Mongols over stretched and could not hold their conquests.

I know that in an attempt to move away from Euro-centric history we look for other examples of progress and greatness, and they are easy to find, but that doesn't mean they are everywhere and that we should rewrite history (unless it is AH!) :).
 
Why not have the Kingdom of Aksum more successful and enduring. It might even develop into an entity where the idea of Aksum remains eternal despite various dynastic collapses (ie, China).
 

ingemann

Banned
Why not have the Kingdom of Aksum more successful and enduring. It might even develop into an entity where the idea of Aksum remains eternal despite various dynastic collapses (ie, China).

Axums problem was that it was backward and isolated compare to the Muslims, which meant that the Christians was pushed into the Ethiopian highland, while expansion to the south was impossible because of climatic and epidemic reasons. Axum may have a chance if Egypt stay Christian, if not the Christians of the area will end up isolated and backward.
 
Why not have the Kingdom of Aksum more successful and enduring. It might even develop into an entity where the idea of Aksum remains eternal despite various dynastic collapses (ie, China).

I was previously unfamiliar with this chapter in african histroy. This is a perfect launching point. During the 2nd century this empire was apparently recognized globally as one of major powers of its age.

Again, without knowing more, I cannot suggest specific changes but z ome small tweaks including expansion in and around the rift valley and great lakes could really have major long term impacts on this empire well before islam appeared or europe emerged from the middle ages.
 
What could have happened if the rivalry between Rome and Carthage had gone in favor of Carthage instead of Rome? If the Carthage had won the battles and an Empire of Carthage had formed around the Mediterranean in place of the Roman Empire? If Carthage remains the capital, it will be an African Empire though not 'Black dominated'.
 
You're not going to do this realistically. Stephen Barnes (I think it was) has a very good series about this (not that I can find hide nor hair of it anywhere on the internet!!!), and even that heavily invoked the MST3K Mantra for the backstory.
I dont post much on AH i rather read the many excellent TLs on here but it always distrubs me when i see what ifs about Africa developing powerful empires on par with European and Asian and this idea is usually dismissed by arguments based on two points. 1. The climate of Africa doesn't lend to supporting large modern states or 2. the level of technology doesn't lend to this.

People tend to forget Africa has supported many empires that during their particular time were 1st tier powers.

The various sultanates in Egypt, Fatimids, Mamluks

The Almoravids and Almohads of North Africa

The Ghanaian, Malian and Songhay Empires

There have also been several states who had a chance to modernize successfully, Asante, Benin, Yoruba, Ethiopia

The massive power disparity between african and european states becomes visible at the industrial revolution, you have to get an African state to pull off a meiji type modernization or have one maintain close enough contact with Europe to advance at a similar pace. To the idea of having Africa swap places with Europe and Asia well so many changes have to be made to history i dont know where to even start.
None of the extant states could "pull a Meiji", but it should be possible for a fictional state in Africa to do it. I mean, the continent is protected by a disease environment that keeps it safe from the worst of Europe's excesses, has ironworking and domesticated animals...

The "Eurasia has greater east-west extent for trade" argument doesn't make too much sense to me, except when referring to Southern Africa which is isolated in southern temperate zone. In the tropics, from Senegal to Somalia is an appreciable east-west extent in itself, and there is further potential for trade with Arabia and India, which have somewhat similar climates. The Sahel is a good east-west axis of trade.

How about having some sort of Mongol-analogue conquering across the Sahel (would horses be introduced to this region/be useful? Aren't they already in Arabia?) conquering a decent swath of West Africa and East Africa? This would make much of Africa more interconnected and more able to compete with the larger world.
The Mongols were able to travel from China to freaking Venice (though obviously they didn't quite conquer that far); that is a lot more territory than exists in central Africa. Barring an act of God, Eurasia is always going to dominate the world for the simple reason that it already consists of most of it, has a large number of domesticables, and has two separate cradles of civilization to pull from. Most of Europe's technology at the dawn of the modern era wasn't developed in Europe but in China, India, Arabia, etc.

*Carthaginian or Egyptian voyage of exploration is lost deep into Southern Africa along with domestic animals and seeds for possible colony
Let me stop you there: No. A voyage of colonization first requires that you find somewhere worth colonizing.
*Lost ship manages to just come ashore in OTL South Africa near Capetown
Cliché Alert! Cliché alert!
*Wheat manages to disseminate into Africa slowly from the south and move north
Where it quickly dies because its not adapted to a jungle environment.
*Iron and/or copper deposits are discovered and used by colonists who marry into the local population, form the basis of an Empire
Which stagnates because it is trapped in South Africa with nowhere to expand to and no one to trade with.

The first thing to do is select a region that makes sense. Instead of sayin gAfrica, let's look at the Great Lakes Region/East Africa/Horn of Africa.

Here you have proven trade ties (think King Soloman and Queen of Sheba). Second you have outstanding agricultural land to support a large population (Ethiopian Empire throughout the ages) and proximity (as far down as Madagascar Indian Ocean traders formed a network later taken up by Yemeni Merchants.

So, assuming some geopolitical entity ranging from Ethiopia down to Tanzania with inroads encompassing the Great LAkes, you have your people. Let's assume that (a) a bit more trade was engaged in by this empire due to their stability and complexity and ability to project outward rather than warring internally, and the idea that (b) after empirical consolidation - say by the first few centuries of the modern era - a surplus of military needed to be vented off (like Spain after the inquisition needed something to do with all those men under arms) and they sent some military personnel along with trading voyages ... first to Arabia, then to South Asia, and eventually to E. Asia.

In time these voyages would spark the imagination, especially if this Rift Valley Empire was able to conquer some significant territory - ala Goa in OTL perhaps? Combine this with trade with China and the faster spread of gun powder and you (a) overcome the very real north/south versus east/west obstacles to the trade of ideas, and (b) provide Africa with the ability to arive at Europe's doorstep sometime in the second millenium and march on Europe.

Just some thoughts. But that is how I see it happening. I cannot easily imagine it coming from West Africa due to remoteness.
Huh. That actually sounds practicable.

No malaria would go a long way. Also no tse tse fly
No, no, the African disease envelope was pretty much the only thing keeping it from getting screwed over even worse IOTL, and will be an asset when it comes to colonizing.

What could have happened if the rivalry between Rome and Carthage had gone in favor of Carthage instead of Rome? If the Carthage had won the battles and an Empire of Carthage had formed around the Mediterranean in place of the Roman Empire? If Carthage remains the capital, it will be an African Empire though not 'Black dominated'.
Doesn't count. Carthage is a Mediterranean power, not an African one.
 
Let me stop you there: No. A voyage of colonization first requires that you find somewhere worth colonizing.

A voyage of exploration that might last a few years could certainly carry enough supplies to last for some time, and Carthage was placing colonies along the Moroccan coasts...

Cliché Alert! Cliché alert!

:rolleyes: South Africa seems like a good place to land compared to a lot of the alternatives. Madagascar seemed a bit too far and I thought the jungle in most of the rest of the continent would make it difficult to expand

Where it quickly dies because its not adapted to a jungle environment.

Not all of South Africa is a "jungle environment". If you want to complain about clichés perhaps you should stop using them.

http://www.fas.usda.gov/pecad/highlights/2004/10/RSA_wheat/

Combine this with domesticated animals and you could have enough increase in food production to support a much larger populace.

Which stagnates because it is trapped in South Africa with nowhere to expand to and no one to trade with.

There are already people in South Africa by that point, the Bantu were able to trade and once they acquired iron they were able to show technological superiority. South Africa has significant copper and iron deposits, and with time the population could expand into the continent from the South on North.
 
A voyage of exploration that might last a few years could certainly carry enough supplies to last for some time, and Carthage was placing colonies along the Moroccan coasts...

But it still needs to have somewhere to go - no one is going to say "Here's supplies, go settle wherever."


There are already people in South Africa by that point, the Bantu were able to trade and once they acquired iron they were able to show technological superiority. South Africa has significant copper and iron deposits, and with time the population could expand into the continent from the South on North.

Where they and their wheat crops run into the part of Africa that -is- a jungle.
 
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