Black Knight/Arrow

It was a bit of a dead end launching from Woomera, it needed Cape York spaceport to be successful, and even then isn't big/powerful enough to be the basis of a national programme. Black Prince on the other hand would be a real winner if launched from Cape York penninsula.
 
Black Prince? Never heard of that one.

The problem with Cape York as a launch area was its extreme remoteness and lack of infrastructure. (Even worse than Woomera)

I worked in Cairns for the Port Authority there in the early eighties and remember a Cape York project being under discussion with the Queensland Government, but it came to nought.
 
Thanks for the link. A Blue Streak first stage eh?

A great tragedy the UK gave up their space capabilities after actually launching a successful satellite.
 
The old addage of if you build it they will come is perhaps relevent here. These days I think there is a port serving Wiepa bauxite mines and Scherger 'bare' RAAF base. How far does/did the rail line extend north from Brisbane.

All of this of course depends on Britian choosing to stay a world power, there is no other way.
 
you need Blue streak as first stage,
because Black Arrow had to little payload of 73 kg
and Black Knight do only suborbital

there were also British French join venture proposal
like Blue Streak with Emeraude VE121 (this became later ELDO Europa rocket Program)
Black Diamant (Diamant L-17 first stage, with Black Arrow second stage on top)
or Diamant A launch from Vulcan Bomber at high altitude

during ELDO Europa 1 program
the Black Arrow fist stage almost replace the Coralie Stage on Rocket
(do to electrical problem in Coralie)

why is UK never became a Space Nation ?
Politics !
from 1957 until 1979 wen Margaret Thatcher take over
was the UK in political turbulence with continued change of governments
wat the Tory government has decided to follow Labor government chanceld it
making victims like TRS-2 and Space Program

the Space Program start under Military, move to Ministry of Science from there to Ministry of Transtport
to end up in 1973 as part of Shipping department of the Ministry of Trade
because is a Rocketship ! get it ?

If you wandet a TL with UK space program solve this Political mess !

here very good link to UK space program
Black Knight, Black Arrrow, Black Prince
Blue Streak and british hydrogene/oxygene rocket engine from 1950s
http://www.spaceuk.org/index.htm
 
I just purchased a nice coffee table book on the Space Race. You can get it here in the States at Borders for $9.99. It's got Ed White during his space walk.

Anyway there's a nice little section on the British space program that primarly focuses on the Black Arrow/Blue Streak programs.

From what I can tell is that there just wasn't any real reason for the UK to keep pursuing these rocket programs. In the late 1960's and early 70's the commercial satelite lauch business was negligable. Military satelites were being developed, but were expensive. The Uk didn't have the money or resources for an extensive military space program.

Same goes for a manned program. The Soviet and American programs were massive undertakings and were little more than stunts in the early years. The UK couldn't justify something like that. If they wanted a manned space capability it would have made more sense to chip in on the American program and get some spots on Late Gemini and late Apollo Missions. A British investment could have helped pay for a few extra Saturn V's and more Skylab missions for example.

So I guess what it gets down to is that Black Arrow and associated launchers were only really good for national prestige purposes. Same goes for TSR-2. In the 1960's it seemed like a good idea, but even if it would have been produced cruise missiles could do the same job better and cheaper. An amazing aircraft, but in the post Cold War enviroment there would have been little justification for keeping a supersonic bomber like that in service. A supersonic low level bomber has no place in military operations of the past 15 plus years. The only reason the B-1B has survived is its large conventional payload and a +500 billion dollar American military budget. High level bombing with smart bombs using F-16/Tornado type aircraft makes more sense. The United States developed the A-5 which was very similar and it didn't last for every long as a bomber. The F-111 was a great a aircraft, but other aircraft that are cheaper and easier to maintain can produce the same results.

Hope I didn't offend and of the posters from the UK. It just seems that those projects were more about national prestige than actually building something useful.
 
From what I can tell is that there just wasn't any real reason for the UK to keep pursuing these rocket programs. In the late 1960's and early 70's the commercial satelite lauch business was negligable. Military satelites were being developed, but were expensive. The Uk didn't have the money or resources for an extensive military space program.
But it became highly lucrative later, and the French were able to cash in on that with Ariane.

The infrastructure had to be in place before the demand could exist.
 
It was a bit of a dead end launching from Woomera, it needed Cape York spaceport to be successful, and even then isn't big/powerful enough to be the basis of a national programme. Black Prince on the other hand would be a real winner if launched from Cape York penninsula.

You don't necessarilly need a spaceport, you could have had an earlier version of the current Sea Launch.

In 'Rebuilding the Royal Navy', by D K Brown and George Moore, Brown mentions a fellow naval architect called Eric Tupper being part of a team that was developing a catamaran to launch space vehicles.

This appears to have been at the time the Type 82 destroyer was being designed so this makes it the 60’s.
 
But it became highly lucrative later, and the French were able to cash in on that with Ariane.

The infrastructure had to be in place before the demand could exist.


That's a good point. But with the old saying "hind sight is best" applies. I still think the gov in the Uk made the right choice. They had no way of knowing how the market would develop and the French would have proved tough competion. What I'm curious about is what portion of the commerical satelite industry was European in the 1970's and early 1980's?

Not to be Americancentric, but my guess is that the vast majority was American satelites intially. However I have no idea so if anyone can prove me wrong I'm willing to listen.

On the capitilistic side of things American companies may have gone with a British launcher if it was cheaper, but with military industrial complex and politics of the 1970's and early 1980's I'd be shocked if more than a handful of AMerican commercial satelites would be allowed to be launched on foriegn rockets.

The French were successful with the Ariane series, but didn't that become a European funded program by the late 1970's, not just French? I know that at least 50% of the funding is French, but last time I heard the UK wasn't helping with funding on the the ESA's Ariane series. Again I'm fuzzy on the exact history of the ESA.

I guess what it get's back to is that the UK would have had at best marginal economic gains from producing it's own satelite launching capability. A partnership with France may have worked, but there hasn't been much in the cooperation in aerospace between the two since the Jaguar. The politics of the EU would have probably messed it up anyway.

On top of that a launcher like the Black Arrow would have had to been followed up with ones with signfiicantly larger payloads to keep up with larger satelites being put into use. Even if the the UK would have gone ahead with the Black Arrow family would they have invested development of heavier lifters like the Ariane 5, Delta Series, and Proton? Doesn't seem likely to me. Especially in light of all of the cuts in military spending over the past 3 decades in the UK.
 
Most things between 1956 and 1982 I blame on Suez and the subsequent crisis of confidence in Britain. If countries like China, India, France, Japan and Israel can afford space programmes then so too can Britain, it's that simple, where there's a will there's a way.
 
Most things between 1956 and 1982 I blame on Suez and the subsequent crisis of confidence in Britain. If countries like China, India, France, Japan and Israel can afford space programmes then so too can Britain, it's that simple, where there's a will there's a way.
Exactly... all we ever got for the Black Arrow/Black Knight programmes was half-measures and lukewarm support.

Now, maybe if Tony Benn can be persuaded to throw his weight (as Minister for Technology in the '60s) behind the programme, instead of Concorde, then we might have something.
 
a litte story about UK part in ELDO and ESA

the 1961 Budget of ELDO Europa 1 Rocket was:
UK 38,79%, France 23,93%, Germany 18,92%, Italy 9,78%, Belgium 2,85%, Netherlands 2,64%

in 1966 new UK Labor goverment start to make Problem
declare to leave ELDO and stop production of Blue Streak
(France and Germany start emergency project L-95 wat became EUROPA III and later Ariane 1)
this crisis is end diplomatically and Budget is change to:
UK 27%, France 27%, Germany 25%, Italy 12%, Belgium 4,5%, Netherlands 4,5%

1968 new UK minister Wedgwood Benn (Labour) refuse to pay there part of Budget
again ELDO budget is cut.
victim is France how spend 540 mio french Franc in now chanceld ELDO program CORA, VEMPA.

1969 UK minister Wedgwood Benn (Labour) declare to leave ELDO in 1971
and only will sell Blue Streak stage to ELDO and nothing more !

1970 new UK minister Frederick Corfield (Tory) goes unprepared to a ELDO meeting
his harsh comments there were the dead blow for ELDO
(had he read the ELDO File before to go ELDO meeting, had change history)

1971 UK leave ELDO, follow by Italy
1972 France and Germany leave ELDO
1973 ELDO stop working.

during 1961-1971 UK had 14 goverment, so who to blame ?
Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn
he think that UK can not afford a space Program (and also no joinventure program like ELDO)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Benn
Frederick Corfield,
he chanceld the Black Arrow program and Kill ELDO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Corfield

ESA start up in 1975 with fusion of ELDO and ESRO
ESA give French CNES the Order to build the L3S (modifde "Europa III"), later called Ariane 1
Ariane 1 rocket Budget:
UK 2,5%, France 63,5%, Germany 20,4%, Italy 1,8%, Belgium 5%, Netherlands 2% and Others
Again Europa 1 rocket Budget:
UK 38,79%, France 23,93%, Germany 18,92%, Italy 9,78%, Belgium 2,85%, Netherlands 2,64%

from 38,79 to 2,5% sounds like Punishment...

Source:
in German
"Die Grenzenlose Dimension Raumfahrt" Band 1 by Harry O. Ruppe Isbn 3430178847
http://www.bernd-leitenberger.de/europa.shtml

in french but in dept history of ELDO and ESA
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/ariane/index.htm
 
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