Black Jack's 20s

HueyLong

Banned
The Great Depression- The Crisis Years (1929-1933)

[TTL's Depression is much the same as OTL, with a few key differences.]

The United Kingdom passed the Samuel Tariff in 1930, raising rates to levels before unseen. This was largely seen as an attempt to protect the governmental coal mines*, an area of great importance to the Conservative government. The Samuel Tariff met international opposition, with tariffs being raised on the UK in response. It is generally regarded to be one of the worst blunders of the Depression.

In Canada, the King government negotiated with the United States to lower tariff rates across the board. (The King-Davis Accords) The King government largely repudiated the Imperial Preference system proposed by UK Conservatives. King introduced old age pensions and a national housing initiative that would later be copied in the Final Triumph.

In the United States, John W. Davis supported a free trade policy with much of the world, particularly in America and Asia. However, trade with Japan was seriously hindered by a refusal to provide arms during the Axe War of 1929-1933. Domestically, he cut governmental spending and employment, sold many federal owned lands, and ended a number of subsidies to business. The Depression worsened under Davis, there were no attempts at relief and he derided state attempts to use government to help the economy recover. Men like Hiram W. Johnson, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Robert M. LaFollette, Huey P. Long and Chase Orson became known for their personal state's recovery attempts. Herbert Hoover remained personally silent on the matter, although the Hoover Institution did not, with a number of essays and editorials becoming the basis for the Final Triumph.

In Germany, Otto Braun's government met with deadlock in the Reichstaag. Attempt to nationalize the commanding heights of the economy failed. Braun's attempts to hold off higher tariffs, demanded by many in his own party, failed. The Braun government cut reparation payments [2] to a bare minimum, which prompted the short lived French blockade of 1931. The KPD and NSDAP grew in power during this time period, and the KPD's Rotfrontkampferbund, under Soviet funds, grew and became a relief organization alongside its paramilitary function. 5000 Germans fought alongside the Soviets from 1930-1933. The NSDAP found patronage among many businessmen and former conservatives, fearful of Braun, and the Party grew by leaps and bounds.

In Australia, Stanley Bruce's [3] government introduced a regular army in response to the high rise in unemployment of 1930 on and the Asian crises (The Axe War and the Second Sino-Japanese War, as well as the beginnings of the Indian Unrest). The Bruce government also adopted an adversarial stance with the unions and pushed through industrial deregulation on the federal level.

[1] The Coal Worker's strike was resolved differently in TTL.
[2] There was no Dawes Plan in TTL, the reparations have remained harsh and the French have become more reliant on them.
[3] He isn't ousted from his seat in TTL.

[The Depression of 1929-1933 is worse in the United States, France, Germany and the United Kingdom. It is better in Australia and Canada. The KPD and NSDAP have more broad constituencies and are better seen as possible saviors from the Depression.]
 

HueyLong

Banned
Topic: Reasons behind the USSR's failure?

NazCadet said:
Zakonchilo Rossiju? (What ended Russia?)

Vojna. (War)

Kommunizm. (Communism)

Vojna kommunizm. (War Communism)

Ateizm. (Godlessness)

Nauka. (Science)

Ateiz nauka. (Godless Science)

Nervno-gaz. (Nerve gas)

Krupskeya311 said:
What ended Russia?

Simple.

Abandoning the world revolution.

Had they kept the course after Trotsky's death, the USSR would still exist today.

After all, Trotsky's world revolution added Mongolia, Vladivostok, Poland and Novarubezhi* to the USSR. India was about to join the Communist cadre and did even after the severing of aid.

Time and the march of progress would have taken their course. But Trotsky's successor cut off the march of progress.

Without allies, the USSR shriveled up.

*The nationalists there can call it Uighurstan all they want, I won't.

PhineasLong said:
Avoiding the European War should be enough. The environmental and demographic damage wrought on Russia was too much, even with the additions of the Romanian and Polish SSRs.

And thats ignoring all the problems they sunk money and resources into in Central Europe. Not going to touch that mess though, not with all the recent controversies there.

HitlerianSymphony said:
As the USSR, it was unsustainable. It would die eventually. When is a different matter.

With the World Revolution, it might keep some glory and some power alive a bit longer, but I doubt it. There were no strategic victories in the world revolution, only symbolic victories.

Without the European War, it doesn't last as long as it did. The demographic damage of that war made the USSR stand up and look at technology and labor usage. It shook them out of a "Throw men at it." approach. Without that war, they also lose their edge in some of the high tech industries post-war (particularly computers)

The best way to keep it going longer is probably to avoid Trotsky taking power. He shattered the stable sectors of government more than anyone else would have done. The replacement of the Party with the Army was particularly stupid. I don't think Bukharin or Stalin would have stepped up and collectivized or forced any modernization, so it would probably still die before OTL.

EdD said:
Oh, this troll again? The guy is from one of those weird Russian right wing parties (Probably the Nacionalj Konstitucionnaj Demokraticheskajaa Partija, and he keeps posting this "revivalist" crap about keeping a strong Russia from the pre-Communist tradition.

Not gonna happen. Russia was predestined to be either communist, a shithole or a communist shithole. Pick one and accept it.
 

HueyLong

Banned
Election of 1932

Herbert Hoover(IO)-Chase Orson(MI) Republicans
John W. Davis (WV)-James Reed(MO) Democrats
Cordell Hull (TN)-George White (OH) Liberal Democrats

Republicans
300
Liberal Democrats
123
Democrats 108


1932.GIF
 

HueyLong

Banned
"Some may ask where all this may lead beyond mere material progress. It leads to a release of the energies of men and women from the dull drudgery of life to a wider vision and a higher hope. It leads to the opportunity for greater and greater service, not alone from man in our own land, but from our country to the whole world. It leads to an America, healthy in body, healthy in spirit, unfettered, youthful, eager—with a vision searching beyond the farthest horizons, with an open mind, sympathetic and generous. We stand now for America's Final Triumph."-Herbert Hoover's Inaugural Address, delivered in person to Congress

"So much of this Panic is rooted in how people think. If they were to get up and do something, this whole thing would be done with."
-Lou Henry Hoover

Governmental Actions of the Hoover Presidency c.1936


-Raised the United States Office of Education to Cabinet-level Department (c.1933)
-The National Revenue Act of 1934 mandated a 2% tax on all business transactions, a 3% tax on all checks and lowered the taxes laid on the lowest income Americans, but raised income tax for the highest income Americans
-The Alderman's Loan Act (1933) provided federal funds for slum clearance and renewal projects
-The Agricultural Readjustment Act (1933) set aside federal funds for the purchase of food at 1919 prices from farmers, and set up a commission to distribute the food domestically and sell it abroad. Ruled unconstitutional in 1934.
-The Frazier-Lemke Act (1934) put a moratorium on farm bankruptcies until 1940. Ruled unconstitutional in 1935
-The Reconstruction Finance Act formed the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, to give loans for "employment value works" or "material value works". Hoover's executive orders outlined clear guidelines to the use of RFC funds. Challenged, but deemed constitutional
-Issued an executive order for the deportation of nearly 2 million Hispanics to Mexico, many of whom were US citizens.
-The Second Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (1934) passed, mandating rates on the level of those found in the Fordney-McNumber Act.
-Petitioned Congress for $400 million dollars in funds to be used on "good Federal works"
-The NHA Finance Act which restored federal funding to the National Highway Authority and reinstated the Director-General
-Dissolved the Bureau of Indian Affairs and removed legal relations with the tribes

Public Actions of the Hoover Presidency c.1936


-Hoover issued the Efficiency Manifesto, which outlined a number of worker safety and management techniques he recommended to business. Hoover met with many business leaders in Washington over the matters of efficiency in production.
-Hoover toured the country on what he called "management tours". The President would arrive in a town and take over a factory for the day, meeting workers, examining management and giving speeches throughout the day.
-Hoover and his wife called on a number of youth organizations to contribute their leisure time to the relief effort. The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America began to teach courses on "self-reliance economics" which included sewing, gardening and collecting.
-Hoover encouraged a program of "cyclical economics" and encouraged scrap-metal drives, collection of food waste for compost or use in later meals and a number of other "economical" ideas. Also supported Ford's Salvage Plan.
-Called together Governors of all 48 states and suggested public works programs, with some tailored specifically to the state in question. Through negotiations with the Southwestern states, he started the Black Jack Dam Project in Black Canyon.
-In a series of radio chats. gave Americans advice on everyday living and ways to lessen the impact of the Depression on their lives. Lou Henry Hoover, his wife, gave recipes and encouraged community get-togethers, socials to break the glib atmosphere.
 

HueyLong

Banned
Is this based on something historical or is there something in the TL that would give reason to this action?

Historical action.

Here's the first online mention I can find of the action:

http://campusapps.fullerton.edu/news/2005/valenciana.html

Of course, it should be noted that the USA has, in this TL, been a bit more condescending to Latin America, and I plan on posting a segment of US-Latin American relations shortly. The Cristero War was not ended with US support, for example, also Black Jack did not pay Columbia for Panama, and there are others. Davis, reviled in the US, is seen in the most favorable light, for his trade stance.
 
I agree with Fleetlord Hart.

A well written and researched TL:cool:

How is the Soviet army in your TL? I suppose that in the 1930´s with all the commandants in active like Uborevich, Tujachevsky and not purged to the death like in OTL plus the great technical and command level of the Soviet Aviation under Alaknis and Lapchinsky (Lapchinsky was a pioneer in the Strategic Bombing thinking) the Soviet Union of TTL could have a far better prepared army than in OTL.
 

HueyLong

Banned
The Soviet Army ITTL is doing better than the 30s era army of OTL, but it still cannot compare to most Western. It still faces the problems of supplies and ammunition that the OTL Army suffered from.

The War of the Axe (1929-1932) will humble the Soviets a bit, and lead to Trotsky placing a greater emphasis on military industries.

The same can be said of the aviators. Infinitely better led and organized, but still lacking the industry behind it. Strategic bombing won't be well-evaluated by the Soviets until the upcoming European Wars, although it will see limited use in the mid-30s and given ideological backing by Trotsky in a formulative Thesis on a Modern Revolution.
 
enry Hoover

Governmental Actions of the Hoover Presidency c.1936

-Raised the United States Office of Education to Cabinet-level Department (c.1933)
-The National Revenue Act of 1934 mandated a 2% tax on all business transactions, a 3% tax on all checks and lowered the taxes laid on the lowest income Americans, but raised income tax for the highest income Americans
-The Alderman's Loan Act (1933) provided federal funds for slum clearance and renewal projects
-The Agricultural Readjustment Act (1933) set aside federal funds for the purchase of food at 1919 prices from farmers, and set up a commission to distribute the food domestically and sell it abroad. Ruled unconstitutional in 1934.
-The Frazier-Lemke Act (1934) put a moratorium on farm bankruptcies until 1940. Ruled unconstitutional in 1935
-The Reconstruction Finance Act formed the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, to give loans for "employment value works" or "material value works". Hoover's executive orders outlined clear guidelines to the use of RFC funds. Challenged, but deemed constitutional
-Issued an executive order for the deportation of nearly 2 million Hispanics to Mexico, many of whom were US citizens.
-The Second Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act (1934) passed, mandating rates on the level of those found in the Fordney-McNumber Act.
-Petitioned Congress for $400 million dollars in funds to be used on "good Federal works"
-The NHA Finance Act which restored federal funding to the National Highway Authority and reinstated the Director-General
-Dissolved the Bureau of Indian Affairs and removed legal relations with the tribes

Public Actions of the Hoover Presidency c.1936

-Hoover issued the Efficiency Manifesto, which outlined a number of worker safety and management techniques he recommended to business. Hoover met with many business leaders in Washington over the matters of efficiency in production.
-Hoover toured the country on what he called "management tours". The President would arrive in a town and take over a factory for the day, meeting workers, examining management and giving speeches throughout the day.
-Hoover and his wife called on a number of youth organizations to contribute their leisure time to the relief effort. The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts of America began to teach courses on "self-reliance economics" which included sewing, gardening and collecting.
-Hoover encouraged a program of "cyclical economics" and encouraged scrap-metal drives, collection of food waste for compost or use in later meals and a number of other "economical" ideas. Also supported Ford's Salvage Plan.
-Called together Governors of all 48 states and suggested public works programs, with some tailored specifically to the state in question. Through negotiations with the Southwestern states, he started the Black Jack Dam Project in Black Canyon.
-In a series of radio chats. gave Americans advice on everyday living and ways to lessen the impact of the Depression on their lives. Lou Henry Hoover, his wife, gave recipes and encouraged community get-togethers, socials to break the glib atmosphere.

So with the kicking out of the Hispanics and dissolution of the BIA, doesn't that have major ramifications on a gaping hole of what the Hispanics had or will have at this period of time?

- also with the BIA - what's going to be in that presence in regards to the reservations and the whole bit of OTL of -not quite overtly federal land (the actual reservation that the tribes occupy)- but not regarded as part of the state/county the "preserve" is on?

In the last point, is FDR going to pick up the radio fireside chats from Hoover then or will he be in the TL at all?
 

HueyLong

Banned
As I understand it, the Indian New Deal is what passed on "ownership" of the reservations to the tribes. They were federally-owned lands under federal jurisdiction before that. Most of the reservations are going to be dissolved completely during Hoover's Presidency, sold off to the vestigial tribes (not recognized as tribes, of course) or to private investors. If you're wondering, in OTL, he supported an end to the tribes and support of the Indian as an individual like any other. It was FDR who ended the assimilationist stand in government.

This is actually going to be better for Indians in economic terms- most people agree the paternalism and primitivism of the reservations was not the best option. But socially, there may be problems and not even the economic betterment will be clear-cut (Some tribes benefited greatly, especially in the Southwest)

As for FDR, in 1932, he was the Governor of New York and he refused to take a stand over the Liberal-Conservative divide of the Democratic Party (All this despite being decried as the Liberal icon, and despite facing a Conservative opposition in the person of Al Smith, who declined the nomination as VP to face him). Throughout the state, he supported mostly Liberal Democrats with a smattering of Fusionist Republicans.

In 1936, he is being talked of as a united Democratic presidential candidate. He is decided against, and John Nance Garner runs in '36 (Some say had he been accepted, the party would have split again anyways). In 40, he is offered the nomination as Presidential candidate and accepts. Won't tell you how that works out just yet.....

As for "fireside chats", FDR runs these in his own state of New York. Reading about Hoover, I'm surprised he didn't do fireside chats during his Presidency. It fits his conception of the President as, basically, a "bully pulpit". Chalk the change here up to two things: 1. A greater realization of what the Great Depression was to the nation 2. Greater effect of film and radio to political ends, in Black Jack's 1920 campaign as well as Davis' 1928.
 
I didn't know that...

In 1936, he is being talked of as a united Democratic presidential candidate. He is decided against, and John Nance Garner runs in '36 (Some say had he been accepted, the party would have split again anyways). In 40, he is offered the nomination as Presidential candidate and accepts. Won't tell you how that works out just yet.....

Sounds interesting...

I'll have to look through your TL to see if I can come up with more questions if you like....
 

HueyLong

Banned
I didn't know that...



Sounds interesting...

I'll have to look through your TL to see if I can come up with more questions if you like....

Go right ahead.... lets me explain some stuff better, and I like attention to my TLs.
 
Don't we all:rolleyes:

The actual TL is rather good although out of my area of focus. I do like how Asia is focused on although I'm a bit wary on what happens on after Black Jack gets out of office - there seems to be nothing on it (unfortunately I cannot shrug in cyberspace). Since this TL is a US orientated one, I guess the focus on Asia (since you did a country by country and Europe as well) will be addressed later...

I'm curious on several things;
- details on the Axe War?
- implications of returned Mexicans to their home & ramifications thereof
- Asia (see above); specifically the potential of Japan & OTL's course
- What's going on Germany, re: OTL, but subject to future installments (again)
- What's up with the blacks? They managed to get Debs in (or reaction by him against Hoover), then vote Hoover in (I'm assuming their presence to be the result of him in office), and ...then what? Civil rights or, again, in the near future?

The installments are very well written and quite interesting.

Also - what's up with Stalin?

I suppose the military industrialization is going to be handy once TTL's version of WW2 breaks out...
 

HueyLong

Banned
Don't we all:rolleyes:
Yes. But just figured I would throw that out there. You didn't have to ask to comment on my TL.

The actual TL is rather good although out of my area of focus. I do like how Asia is focused on although I'm a bit wary on what happens on after Black Jack gets out of office - there seems to be nothing on it (unfortunately I cannot shrug in cyberspace).

I hopped around just a little. Plan on writing what Davis did, although some of it was covered in the Crisis Years update.

Since this TL is a US orientated one, I guess the focus on Asia (since you did a country by country and Europe as well) will be addressed later...

Its going to become more international in scope as time goes on, but will remain centered on the US (kinda like OTL :p)

I'm curious on several things;

- details on the Axe War?
-Asia is coming up- the Axe War is actually what I'm writing about right now.
- implications of returned Mexicans to their home & ramifications thereof
-Mexico and Latin America are also on the agenda, the main effect of the deportation is a rising tide of anti-Americanism which is only going to become worse, especially when tied up with Trotskyism
- Asia (see above); specifically the potential of Japan & OTL's course
-Japan is going to reevaluate its position towards the mainland following the Axe War. Its already gained large swathes of territory in North China and Siberia, and this is before the militarists came to power.
- What's going on Germany, re: OTL, but subject to future installments (again)
Germany is going to get a rather large update as soon as I can. It has been covered in the Crisis Years as well as A Bitter Revolution, but not up to date (1936). Otto Braun has been president of the Republic since 1925. The Nazis and the Komis are the two faces of the anti-government revolutionaries, left and right. They both return to parliamentary politics following the Great Depression.
-What's up with the blacks? They managed to get Debs in (or reaction by him against Hoover), then vote Hoover in (I'm assuming their presence to be the result of him in office), and ...then what? Civil rights or, again, in the near future?
-They got Davis in, technically, but it was through voting for Hoover. Davis got in over white fears of blacks, pretty much. There is the desegregation of the armed forces and the handling of the Flood to recommend Hoover and the Republicans as nigger-lovers. There is also some talk of the Haitian matters, but again, thats in the Latin America update. And blacks will remain loyal Republicans, and are at least part of the reason Hoover gets in in 1932.


Also - what's up with Stalin?

I suppose the military industrialization is going to be handy once TTL's version of WW2 breaks out...

Stalin is one of the two leaders of the International Communist Opposition. He and Bukharin are, in essence, the analogue to Trotsky in TTL. They mainly talk of the Napoleonic take-over of the USSR, and blast the militaries of communist states (much as Trotsky did the bureaucrats). Many socialists and communists claim to be Stalinist or Bukharinist, much like they claimed in OTL to be Trotskyists. Stalin has been on a tour of much of Europe, and was in Scandinavia for some time. Bukharin is in Scandinavia.

The military industrialization of Trotsky doesn't begin to compare to the mass industrialization of Stalin. But its more focused to the needs of the miliitary, and yes, it will be of use in this TLs WW2.
 

HueyLong

Banned
Have no idea why I can not get this guy's name right, but retcon all mentions of Chase Orson to Chase Osborn. In TTL's 1928, he ran as Governor of Michigan and won. He had been a Governor earlier on.
 
Last edited:
Yes. But just figured I would throw that out there. You didn't have to ask to comment on my TL.

It wasn't actually meant as sarcasm...

So covering the Axe War was more of an 'explain later' thing since throughout the previous installments you gave mention of but didn't go into detail?
 

HueyLong

Banned
It wasn't actually meant as sarcasm...

So covering the Axe War was more of an 'explain later' thing since throughout the previous installments you gave mention of but didn't go into detail?

Yeah. I'm actually struggling a little with writing about wars, so I'm trying to get everything just right.
 
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