Black Boots, White Snow - A collborative Nazi Victory TL

  • Thread starter Deleted member 5719
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You've actually just stated the reasons why a German "Cultural Revolution" would be started under Himmler. The idea of a Cultural Revolution is to "return to the roots" of the Party. As head of the SS and the NSDP Himmler would be in a unique position to impose his more extremist views on the leadership.


"It was launched by Heinrich Himmler, the chairman of the National Socialist Party of Germany, on May 23, 1963, who alleged that "liberal bourgeois" elements were permeating the party and society at large, and wanted to restore capitalism."

Nazi publications and speeches included anti-capitalist (especially anti-finance capitalist) rhetoric. Hitler attacked what he called “pluto-democracy,” which he claimed to be a Jewish conspiracy to favor democratic parties in order to keep capitalism intact. The “corporation” was attacked by orthodox Nazis as being the leading instrument of finance capitalism, with the role of Jews emphasized. The National Socialist party described itself as socialist, and, at the time, conservative opponents such as the Industrial Employers Association described it as “totalitarian, terrorist, conspiratorial, and socialist.”
 
Im not convinced. Italy has a different set of cards than China had. Id seriousely doubt Spain or Italy (close "allies", or better yet puppets) would chosse to bite on the hand that feeds them. I think sooner or later some Nazi would turn up the question of South Tyrol or the Austria Litorale. And if all else fails for the Germans, they can always send in the troops.

They are not puppets; Spain is wholly independent and Italy would not be a puppet in this TL since circumstances seem that Italy retained order. Similarly, it was Italy which was the hand that fed Germany early in the relationship, and Italy isn't subservient to Germany.

Nazi publications and speeches included anti-capitalist (especially anti-finance capitalist) rhetoric.Hitler attacked what he called “pluto-democracy,” which he claimed to be a Jewish conspiracy to favor democratic parties in order to keep capitalism intact. The “corporation” was attacked by orthodox Nazis as being the leading instrument of finance capitalism, with the role of Jews emphasized. The National Socialist party described itself as socialist, and, at the time, conservative opponents such as the Industrial Employers Association described it as “totalitarian, terrorist, conspiratorial, and socialist.”
National Socialism is a bad nomenclature since Nazism wasn't Socialist in the least, and Fascist in total, and the two are distinct. Fascists disliked Capitalism, but they also loathed anything pertaining to egalitarianism, and "survival of the fittest" often remained in economics under a Fascist state in the form of a sort of hyper-bastardized Laissez Faire. Union's and workers rights were denied or squashed, and business owners generally allowed to do whatever they liked with their workers as long as things got done. While businesses were nationalized, those not seen as needed (and therefore nationalized) were left to wallow without generally any protections. It was very much the "Third Way" promoted since it was neither Capitalist nor Socialist or Communist.
 
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Deleted member 5719

Perhaps I went ahead of myself there. Im sorry if I offended anyone.

But these posts bugg me:

1."German Cultural Revolution"

Started by Himmler? That insane bastard? He was even more far gone in the idea of Nazism than Hitler himself. He wouldnt stray from the Nazi doctrine in a million years if they had won. In fact, he had plans of making a SS country out of parts of Belgium and France. A Medieval themed Nazi "paradise". I dont really think he would get to be anything but the chief of the SS considering Gering, Gebbels and Speer were Hitlers more favourite choices for his successor.

Thanks for the feedback.

I think Himmler's extremism is what makes him the outstanding candidate for this role, as Bondoc says.

2.France defiant

Impossible, Im afraid. With a lapdog Nazi government France would be the last place (aside from Italy) where such a thing would happen. The resistance to Nazi rule in France is exaggerated. Wermacht soldiers could walk the streets of Paris unarmed and nothing would happen to them. The only place such things would happen would be Poland or the Balkans (assuming the Nazis and their bootlicks didnt exterminate the "Untermenschen" there). Even Britain is inplausible because of Oswald Mosley and ppl like our beloved Johannes Becker.

Nothing is impossible, Polish or Czech resistence to the Soviets looked impossible in 1960, an armed mass uprising in Northern Ireland was highly improbable at that date as well. And an Islamist rebellion against Arab Socialism? Laughable.

Now given we have a point of departure in 1933, a uber-collaborative Britain, and a French rebellion in the early 70's are absolutely not so implausible they should be ruled out. The French resistence to the nazis is often highlihted by the French for reasons of national pride, but it did provide a great deal of support for the allies, especially in terms of sabotage and the Maquis tying down troops.

3.Osiris program

Basically it is questionable if the Commonwealth could survive the loss of Britain. India and Australia werent really fond of the British rulling them. And the Nazis had a nuke program. As did the US. If the US of A would concentrate its millitary on defeating Japan, the nuke coming from the US first is very plausible. Even if the Nazis conquered all the way to the Ural, they could also developed the Nuke for destroying the last parts of Soviet ressistance.

This TL the US never entered the War against Germany, continuing their policy of appeasement way past 1941. They did use nukes first, against Japan, when war broke out in the 50ìs or 80ìs, remember, this TL has no Pearl Harbour.

I tend to agree we are wanking the Commonwealth a little, but there is no reason to think the Commonwealth would break up. Australia was still mired in a cultural cringe to the Mother Country in 1970, its population was 1/2 British born in 1940. India was dealt with in one of the posts above.

The nuke? Unlikely but possible, so it stays.

5.Italo-German split

Italy was never a equal partner of Germany. In the end of the war Germany would have probably control most of Italy by several means, so deviation from the Nazi/Fachist doctrine would be bluntly impossible.

The War here is NOT WWII. America was not involved, nor was Japan. It's unlikely German troops ever stepped on Italian soil.
 
Perhaps I went ahead of myself there. Im sorry if I offended anyone.
No worries.
2.France defiant

Impossible, Im afraid. With a lapdog Nazi government France would be the last place (aside from Italy) where such a thing would happen. The resistance to Nazi rule in France is exaggerated. Wermacht soldiers could walk the streets of Paris unarmed and nothing would happen to them. The only place such things would happen would be Poland or the Balkans (assuming the Nazis and their bootlicks didnt exterminate the "Untermenschen" there). Even Britain is inplausible because of Oswald Mosley and ppl like our beloved Johannes Becker.
This situation isn't that implausible. For the most part Nazi Germany's hand rested fairly lightly on France in OTL. After 20+ years of rule by a copy cat Fascist government, enough French people could decide it was time to stage a revolution. As long as France played nice it's likely the Nazi's would have most of their eyes, ears and fists in other less stable areas, believing the Fascist French could control things. That makes it more likely for an uprising to occur, than a place where the Nazi's are watching closely.
Poland would be expected to revolt, so Germany would be ready to smack it down. The French are weak and cowardly:rolleyes:, so Germany could ignore them.


3.Osiris program

Basically it is questionable if the Commonwealth could survive the loss of Britain. India and Australia werent really fond of the British rulling them. And the Nazis had a nuke program. As did the US. If the US of A would concentrate its millitary on defeating Japan, the nuke coming from the US first is very plausible. Even if the Nazis conquered all the way to the Ural, they could also developed the Nuke for destroying the last parts of Soviet ressistance.
:eek:
This Commonwealth surviving is different from OTL. Rather than being controlled by anyone country its more of a United Nations type group. So India got its independance, but joined up as an ally. Australia can do anything it wants in Australia and has an almost free hand internationally, but it has some obligations to the Commonwealth. In return for money and military aid, there would likely be valuable trade links, mutual protection pacts, shared technology etc. Its possible, and if they were afraid of the Japanese, at first, and Germany it becomes more likely.
As for the nuke, ok I went overboard I admit it. But thats the only real wanking I did with them. :eek: If you don't like it write about how its the only thing they successfully did together, and the so-called Joint Defence Force is a weak joke, that couldn't organize a bar crawl. Heck I may write that.

4.EIRE REUNITED

If the Nazis had conquered Britain, Northern Ireland would have just been "patched" back to the Rep. of Ireland eithar by revolt or millitary occupation by the Rep. of Ireland (occupation is a very bad word for such a turn of events, I know). Then later it would have probably seen the fate of most European countries: falling into direct or indirect contol by the Reich.
How did the Nazi's conquer it? Did the Sea Animal approach win or did the British end up capitulating after severe, unending bomb attacks. As long as Ireland played nice, its possible they became TTL's version of Finland during the Cold War, independent, but if the big scary neighbour says jump, they jump.


For a group work project like this I think we haven't done too badly.
 
From the New York Times April 30th, 1972

German Troops Withdraw From Algiers as Nationalists Seize Capital

ALGIERS (API)- German embassy officials in Algiers announced their withdrawal from Algeria after fighting in the region since 1961. Streitkräfte under the command of Generals Rudolf Bamler and Bernhard Bechler have attempted to maintain the semblence of an orderly witdrawal, but as the sound of mortar shells and tanks fill the streets, many who have collaborated with the German-backed government since 1956 have asked for asylum in Germany. Already the offices for the Reichsamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung have been set on fire by Algerian guerillas. Smoke columns also rise from the Reichsamt für Informationsmanagement und Informationstechnik der Reichswehr as Algerian nationals, afraid that their role in supporting German forces in the region, have taken every effort to destroy any records and papers that may have been left behind by German forces.

Unfortunately, whatever space was once available to Harki collaborators has since disappeared. Ever since 1956 the estimated 45,000 Harkis who had reached France and Germany have been lodged either in Harki settlements near existing urban centers, such as Dreux, or in isolated hamlets in the rural south built for that purpose or in so-called temporary camps, such as Bias. Some of these camps had formerly housed refugees and political prisoners of various sorts. They were run in military fashion, with curfews, barbed wire, and watch-towers. Inside the Harkis had very few, if any, contacts with French natives. In 1966 more than 14,000 Harkis remained in such camps. All these emergency measures alienated the Harkis.

Meanwhile, reports that General Hasso von Manteuffel, Supreme Commander of the Algerian Operation since 1963 has commited suicide has spread through the capital like wildfire. Nationalist guerillas led by Sheikh Abbassi Madani and Saadi Yacef have demanded the capture and execution of all German and French nationals in the region. Also a curfew has been imposed over the capital.....
 
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From the New York Times April 30th, 1972

German Troops Withdraw From Algiers as Nationalists Seize Capital

ALGIERS (API)- German embassy officials in Algiers announced their withdrawal from Algeria after fighting in the region since 1961. Streitkräfte under the command of Generals Rudolf Bamler and Bernhard Bechler have attempted to maintain the semblence of an orderly witdrawal, but as the sound of mortar shells and tanks fill the streets, many who have collaborated with the German-backed government since 1956 have asked for asylum in Germany. Already the offices for the Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung have been set on fire by Algerian guerillas. Smoke columns also rise from the Bundesamt für Informationsmanagement und Informationstechnik der Bundeswehr as Algerian nationals, afraid that their role in supporting German forces in the region, have taken every effort to destroy any records and papers that may have been left behind by German forces.

Unfortunately, whatever space was once available to Harki collaborators has since disappeared. Ever since 1956 the estimated 45,000 Harkis who had reached France and Germany have been lodged either in Harki settlements near existing urban centers, such as Dreux, or in isolated hamlets in the rural south built for that purpose or in so-called temporary camps, such as Bias. Some of these camps had formerly housed refugees and political prisoners of various sorts. They were run in military fashion, with curfews, barbed wire, and watch-towers. Inside the Harkis had very few, if any, contacts with French natives. In 1966 more than 14,000 Harkis remained in such camps. All these emergency measures alienated the Harkis.

Meanwhile, reports that General Hasso von Manteuffel, Supreme Commander of the Algerian Operation since 1963 has commited suicide has spread through the capital like wildfire. Nationalist guerillas led by Sheikh Abbassi Madani and Saadi Yacef have demanded the capture and execution of all German and French nationals in the region. Also a curfew has been imposed over the capital.....

The term "Bundes-" (Amt, Wehr, etc) only came into use with the post-war Federal Republic of Germany. The correct term for a German victory timeline would be "Reichsamt" or even "Reichsministerium," along with, of course, "Wehrmacht."

See, I can be as pedantic as anyone. Heil myself. :p
 
No worries.

This situation isn't that implausible. For the most part Nazi Germany's hand rested fairly lightly on France in OTL. After 20+ years of rule by a copy cat Fascist government, enough French people could decide it was time to stage a revolution. As long as France played nice it's likely the Nazi's would have most of their eyes, ears and fists in other less stable areas, believing the Fascist French could control things. That makes it more likely for an uprising to occur, than a place where the Nazi's are watching closely.
Poland would be expected to revolt, so Germany would be ready to smack it down. The French are weak and cowardly:rolleyes:, so Germany could ignore them.



:eek:
This Commonwealth surviving is different from OTL. Rather than being controlled by anyone country its more of a United Nations type group. So India got its independance, but joined up as an ally. Australia can do anything it wants in Australia and has an almost free hand internationally, but it has some obligations to the Commonwealth. In return for money and military aid, there would likely be valuable trade links, mutual protection pacts, shared technology etc. Its possible, and if they were afraid of the Japanese, at first, and Germany it becomes more likely.
As for the nuke, ok I went overboard I admit it. But thats the only real wanking I did with them. :eek: If you don't like it write about how its the only thing they successfully did together, and the so-called Joint Defence Force is a weak joke, that couldn't organize a bar crawl. Heck I may write that.


How did the Nazi's conquer it? Did the Sea Animal approach win or did the British end up capitulating after severe, unending bomb attacks. As long as Ireland played nice, its possible they became TTL's version of Finland during the Cold War, independent, but if the big scary neighbour says jump, they jump.


For a group work project like this I think we haven't done too badly.

I imagine a successful Hess trip to Britain. The pro-Nazi elements of the upper class (and they did exist, Churchill notwithstanding) thought of Hitler as the lesser evil compared with Bolshevism. A neutralist or even pro-German government could have assumed power absent an actual British surrender.

Then how to explain the Germanisation of Britain? I could imagine an unsuccessful revolt against the neutralist/pro-German government that would need to be put down by direct German involvement, leaving a much larger German footprint on Britain. Most of the country would sullenly accept occupation, with a minority successfully co-opted to think of themselves as racially German.
 
The term "Bundes-" (Amt, Wehr, etc) only came into use with the post-war Federal Republic of Germany. The correct term for a German victory timeline would be "Reichsamt" or even "Reichsministerium," along with, of course, "Wehrmacht."

See, I can be as pedantic as anyone. Heil myself. :p
ARRRRRGGGHHH!!! Don't worry, I have made the corrections, as suggested. In the meantime, between the German Cultural Revolution, the German-Italian Split, the military involvement in South Africa and Algeria, things are very unpleasant for the German people....
 
Thanks for the feedback.

I think Himmler's extremism is what makes him the outstanding candidate for this role, as Bondoc says.



Nothing is impossible, Polish or Czech resistence to the Soviets looked impossible in 1960, an armed mass uprising in Northern Ireland was highly improbable at that date as well. And an Islamist rebellion against Arab Socialism? Laughable.

Now given we have a point of departure in 1933, a uber-collaborative Britain, and a French rebellion in the early 70's are absolutely not so implausible they should be ruled out. The French resistence to the nazis is often highlihted by the French for reasons of national pride, but it did provide a great deal of support for the allies, especially in terms of sabotage and the Maquis tying down troops.



This TL the US never entered the War against Germany, continuing their policy of appeasement way past 1941. They did use nukes first, against Japan, when war broke out in the 50ìs or 80ìs, remember, this TL has no Pearl Harbour.

I tend to agree we are wanking the Commonwealth a little, but there is no reason to think the Commonwealth would break up. Australia was still mired in a cultural cringe to the Mother Country in 1970, its population was 1/2 British born in 1940. India was dealt with in one of the posts above.

The nuke? Unlikely but possible, so it stays.



The War here is NOT WWII. America was not involved, nor was Japan. It's unlikely German troops ever stepped on Italian soil.

1.So if we assume the Cultural Revolution was a "returning to the roots movement", id say it would have seen the same fate as the "Croatian Spring". It had different goals, but it was similar in context. In a very centralised Yugoslavia, the effects of this movement were pretty small. So unless Himmler was Fuhrer, his programe would soon be demonised if it went against the wishes of the Fuhrer (who ever he may be), and it would have much less effect than implied.


2.If we assume that France here fell in the same way as it did in OTL, then much of it has been colonised by German settlers (as agreed upon when the French surrendered). So a French "revolution" is plausible, but it wouldnt realy do that much in any way, since the Nazis have far more direct ways of dealing with insurgents of the "second-best" Aryian race.


3.If we are making historical paralelles between OTL and this world, the Nazi idea would have probably spread over all the "White states" in the world. Maybe it wouldnt have much (if any) effect on the political scene, but they would always be there. Australia wasnt completly made out of Britts, and they had their "White Australia" laws until recently. Not to mention the USA, where Nazism (or an Americanized form of Fachism) would thrive in the South.


4.I never mentioned the Italians being conquered. Its just hard for me to believe Italy would openly defy a friendly allied country that is more powerful than Italy could ever be. When was the last time the Italians defied anyone unsupported? They are not perticulary known for having a backbone in anything except football. Italy has no border with any democratic state, just good ol` Ber... *ahem*, Welthaupstadt Germania.

And in the end, why would Italy rant? They got everything they ever wanted. In the event of it being so sucessful as you guys describe it, there is no real Italian opposition twoards Facism. It brought them a colonial empire and all the Irredenata territories. Therefore there is no reason for the death of Mussolini causing such radical change of government in Italy. The same goes for Spain.
 
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No worries.

This situation isn't that implausible. For the most part Nazi Germany's hand rested fairly lightly on France in OTL. After 20+ years of rule by a copy cat Fascist government, enough French people could decide it was time to stage a revolution. As long as France played nice it's likely the Nazi's would have most of their eyes, ears and fists in other less stable areas, believing the Fascist French could control things. That makes it more likely for an uprising to occur, than a place where the Nazi's are watching closely.
Poland would be expected to revolt, so Germany would be ready to smack it down. The French are weak and cowardly:rolleyes:, so Germany could ignore them.



:eek:
This Commonwealth surviving is different from OTL. Rather than being controlled by anyone country its more of a United Nations type group. So India got its independance, but joined up as an ally. Australia can do anything it wants in Australia and has an almost free hand internationally, but it has some obligations to the Commonwealth. In return for money and military aid, there would likely be valuable trade links, mutual protection pacts, shared technology etc. Its possible, and if they were afraid of the Japanese, at first, and Germany it becomes more likely.
As for the nuke, ok I went overboard I admit it. But thats the only real wanking I did with them. :eek: If you don't like it write about how its the only thing they successfully did together, and the so-called Joint Defence Force is a weak joke, that couldn't organize a bar crawl. Heck I may write that.


How did the Nazi's conquer it? Did the Sea Animal approach win or did the British end up capitulating after severe, unending bomb attacks. As long as Ireland played nice, its possible they became TTL's version of Finland during the Cold War, independent, but if the big scary neighbour says jump, they jump.


For a group work project like this I think we haven't done too badly.


2. I`ll take your point on the Commonwealth being a dog that barks alot.
But since one post says "the Nazis will be here in a month or two", Id say thats an assurance that they conquered it by military force.
Maybe Oswald had a coup if it was not by military conquest?
 

Deleted member 5719

Extracts from The Red Road to Europe by Delanore Theroux (New york, 1977)


The water in my canteen froze on the last night of September.

‘The cold comes early to Poland,’ Kapuscinski told me, as he stiffly saddled his horse, ‘or late, depending on where Poland happens to be that day.’


Comrade Ryszard had warned me that there would be no comforts in the “Unorganized Territories”, but assured me that “If anyone can get a soft American capitalist dog to the Ural railhead, it is the Polish People’s Militia”. He had then invited me to a fourth glass of Genuine Polish Vodka, which was to my taste indistinguishable from Russian vodka, and we’d toasted ‘The Children of Poland, wherever they may sleep’, before stepping out unsteadily into the warm August sun of Omsk.

For all his relaxed charm and bonhomie, it had been clear Ryszard Kapuscinski was a man of considerable influence in Omsk. I had been waiting for exit papers for a month when I met him in Nevskybar on Beria Prospekt, drinking neat vodka with a group of older Poles. A little drunk already, I went over and introduced myself and was politely informed that I had interrupted a meeting of the Central Committee of the Polish Socialist Party. My apology was waved away and I was invited to join the “meeting”. Upon production of my Union Card for the American Brotherhood of Longshoremen, the Committee unanimously resolved to send the Workers of America fraternal greetings, and to buy me a vodka. It was the first of many drunken nights.

With Comrade Ryszard in my corner, Party doors which had been closed were open to me, and ten days after our meeting in Nevskybar, he turned up at my hotel with a bottle of vodka and an envelope.

‘Congratulations Comrade Delanore, the People’s Soviet Republic has, in its wisdom, granted you permission to enter Zukhovburg Oblast, which, according to my official maps, extends to Leningrad and beyond. Of course, you will be accompanied, for your own safety, by a detachment of the Polish People’s Militia.’
I embraced him and kissed him on both cheeks, after the Russian custom.

___________________________________________________________________________________________


The PPM is supported unquestioningly by the Soviets, fed, armed and watered whenever they arrive in the frontier posts of the Irtysh Oblast, riding their sleek well-groomed horses with a cowboy swagger. In exchange, the Possacks police the wilds between Zukhovburg and the railhead near Perm, organizing the Czechs, Poles and Russians of these badlands, and preventing German settlers from getting a foothold in the eastern Urals.

They are hard men and women, mostly second generation exiles born in the Soviet Republic and in the Unorganized Territories, the only Polish-born PPM man I met was Kapuscinski, who had been deported East sometime in the early ‘40s.


We rode across their “homeland” for weeks, as the weather grew steadily colder. The wild Slavs live in the most desperate poverty and want, they speak a kind of pidgin of Russian, Polish and Czech. Lacking schools, for the most part they are illiterate. There are no doctors, and the people suffer greatly from smallpox, tuberculosis and influenza.

The day my water-bottle froze, we came to a village of Untermenschen which had been the victim of a slave raid by the Uralstetlers.

I had never witnessed such a sight in all my born days. Neither, I think, had I ever truly hated, until that cold morning at the bleeding edge of Europe.
 
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1958..PNG


I made this using the info I have for now. I only added the R.O.F. (Reichsprovinz Ost Frankreich), which I will explain in another post.

I will change it if further information about Europe is provided.

The independed countries you can see are a part of the "European Alliance". Its basically a Nazi Warshaw Pact. Spain and Italy are more like partners and co-founders. The Dark Red countries are Reichprovinzes, and are subject of great Germanisation and are mostly under the strict control by the Reich. Great Britain holds certain autonomy, but it still has a German Governor in London(10 Downing st, of course). I gave Germany the part of Italian Tyrol mostly populated by Germans, and I will post on how this happened. The Cyan part of the map is Ostland, which is basically the "lebensraum".

1958..PNG
 
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How did it come to this? How could we have let this horrid fate befall us? We defeated the Germans in 1918., how could we not in 1940.? Were our leaders so incompetent, so lazy and cowardly to let one of the strongest millitary forces in the world to die? What would Napoleon say if he saw what is happening today? He was the one that tought the Rheinland and Prussian thugs what Civilisation was all about. Now they run Europe as if it was their own private playground! Nationes who have had kingdoms centuries before the rise of Germany have become meer footnotes in history, driven from their homelands overnight by force of arms! All because of a twisted dream by one pint-sized Austrian. To think how arrogant we have been, putting our faith into halfwitted Generals, who built fortresses instead of a modern army! Fortresses are monuments to the stupidity of Man! The only way to win a war is attack, attack and attack! And now we, and France, pay for their stupidity. But, where is France? Once it stood proud on the banks of the La Manche, the Atlantic, and the Mediterranian. Once it towered over Europe on the Alpes, and walked confidently on the banks of the Rhein and Seine. Now it lies shattered in ruins, in the mud, struck down by the German Tanks, and walked upon by endless phalanxes of marching Wermacht soldiers! Is France the puppet state of the Bordeaux Republic? Of course NOT!!! It does the bidding of the Reich in all aspects of its exsistance! It is no more an independent country then Austria! It does not even include all the territories of France! The entire northern part of our Country is int he so-called Reichprovinz Ost Frankreich! Normandie, Ile-de-France, Haute-Normandie, Franche-Comte, Burgogne, Lorraine, Picardie, Champagne-Ardenne, and most of Centre were cut out from the fleash of France to create this abomination! Nord-pas-de-Calais isnt even considered Freach anymore! Paris is now 1/4 German! Nancy, Strasbourg, and Metz are only 1/3 French! Northern France will soon become „Western Germany“! The claws of the Italians have stolen from us as well, taking Nice and Savoy! Now is the time to rise up and speak up! Free Frenchmen, let your voices be heard!

Brochure distributed in theaters, cinemas, coffe shops and restauraunts across France from 1970.-1975.
During the 1975. Uprising, French citisens asking for the reunification of R.O.F. with France were shot on the streets of Paris by „Millitia Francias“, a collaborationist French organisation. The protestors in Bordeaux France were also fired upon by forces loyal to the Fachist Bordeaux Republic.
 
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Lonestarr, you know that your signature is a little bit poisened term in germany.
The sentence "Jedem das Seine" was written at the entry of the KZ Buchenwald.

I am aware of the controversy and perversion due to the mistreatment and masskillings at Buchenwald, but in stark contrast to it is the original meaning of that thousands of years old proverb.
 
Im not convinced. Italy has a different set of cards than China had. Id seriousely doubt Spain or Italy (close "allies", or better yet puppets) would chosse to bite on the hand that feeds them. I think sooner or later some Nazi would turn up the question of South Tyrol or the Austria Litorale. And if all else fails for the Germans, they can always send in the troops.

4.I never mentioned the Italians being conquered. Its just hard for me to believe Italy would openly defy a friendly allied country that is more powerful than Italy could ever be. When was the last time the Italians defied anyone unsupported? They are not perticulary known for having a backbone in anything except football. Italy has no border with any democratic state, just good ol` Ber... *ahem*, Welthaupstadt Germania.

And in the end, why would Italy rant? They got everything they ever wanted. In the event of it being so sucessful as you guys describe it, there is no real Italian opposition twoards Facism. It brought them a colonial empire and all the Irredenata territories. Therefore there is no reason for the death of Mussolini causing such radical change of government in Italy. The same goes for Spain.

My idea of an “Italo-German Split” was supposed to be an analogue of the Sino-Soviet Split, and to an extent, of the Tito-Stalin Split. My intention was to add a level of complexity and plurality to the Fascist world, parallel to that which existed in the OTL Communist world, which would provide a refreshing alternative to the common image of a singular, monolithic, unquestionably uber-German-dominated Europe, found in most Axis victory TL’s. You seem to believe however that the relationship between Germany and Italy, that existed in the OTL late 1930’s to 40’s, one where Italy is a paper tiger or by the end of the war, a mere puppet, propped up, held together and kept alive by its German allies… would continue to exist completely unchanged and without any development or evolution into the late 1950’s and early 60’s of a vastly different alternate timeline, in other words; an inert, static historical axiom.

What is to stop Italy, in twenty to thirty years’ time, armed with its own empire, its own resources and oil reserves, from developing into a formidable power in its own right? I mentioned in my post that the Italian Navy greatly benefited from the “tearing apart of the late Royal Navy”, that it had full control of the Suez as Hitler’s birthday gift to Mussolini in 1949, and that Italy had “recently acquired atomic technology”. All of these factors, most especially the last one, would make the “send in the troops” option far more dangerous and complex than anything like the Soviet intervention in Hungary in 1956 or even the Nazi occupation of Horthy’s Hungary in 1944.

Now why should Germany be so enthusiastic about the growth of Italian power you may ask, that it would be given portions of the Royal Navy and control of the Suez Canal as well as “German funds and technology”? Well my inference is that the Germans would be interested in giving Italy the role of “policeman of the Mediterranean”, to enforce and maintain Axis power in that region, while Germany could focus all of its energies to more important geopolitical interests like the colonization of Russia, the assimilation of Britain and Northern Europe, and competition with America for influence in the wider world. This would seem to go in tandem with Hitler’s devotion to his Italian allies and give Italy a useful niche in Germany’s postwar vision. And you may think of Italian atomic weapons as highly unlikely but what if the Nazis had developed atomic technology from a joint, collaborative atomic weapons program with Italy? Perhaps needing the talents of someone like Enrico Fermi? Or Italy had spies close enough to the German atomic program that they could steal the information? There are many possible explanations here.

With these things in mind, it is not at all an impossibility to see a formidable Italian power, with a capacity for independence, several decades into an Axis victory world, especially with changes in circumstances that stretch way back to the early 1930’s.

You seem to say that Italy’s acquisition of its long-desired empire would keep it completely satisfied and content, to the point of happy, quiet subservience to the German order, with no reason at all to “rant”. But what is to stop the future leaders of Italy from wanting more? Italy, and to some extent the other Latin countries (aside from France), are in a unique position of being largely free and independent from the German influence that has permeated almost every other government in Europe. The Race Laws were introduced under the influence of Berlin, yes, but they were passed on Mussolini’s own volition and never forced upon Italy at gunpoint. In fact when it comes down to it, it could even be said that it was Italy, through its ideological and philosophical influence that was the one that exerted influence on Germany, rather than the other way around. And this could very well be the prevalent view amongst the leaders and people of Italy.

The grave military defeats and catastrophes that befell Italy in OTL, which Germany had to “save” Italy from, never happen in this timeline and thus, the Italians are never reduced to junior Axis partners or puppet status. The Italians do not see themselves as subservient or indebted to Germany in anyway. They are “equals” of Germany, they won the war together with Germany as equal partners and allies who helped each other, and there was very little room in this timeline to challenge that notion, since… again, the military disasters that befell Italy and the blunders that exposed its weaknesses, never happened, and Germany never appeared as the “deus ex machina” that provided the salvation of Italian Fascism. This is a different world with a different history.

And what does sharing a border with a democratic state have anything to do with internal ideological change? This certainly was not a factor in the Sino-Soviet Split. And just as Italy shares a border with the Reich, so did the Chinese with the USSR.


I don’t think that there would be “Italian opposition towards Fascism” in this timeline just as there was never any Chinese opposition towards Communism in the Sino-Soviet Split, especially given that Fascism was invented by the Italians themselves. And I guess they reserve the right in this timeline to determine what "Fascism" is as it evolves. There would however be, I believe, significant Italian opposition toward National Socialism, just as there was plenty, historically in OTL. Just as much as there are many points of similarity and agreement between the two ideologies, there is as much room for differences and disagreement. If for example, the Germans and the Italians had gone to war with each other in the late 30’s over Austria, the terms “Fascist” and “Nazi” may not have entered most people’s vocabularies as virtual synonyms.

The Nazi-inspired "Race Laws" or the "Manifesto of Race", introduced by Mussolini in OTL, was unpopular with most Italians and seen by many as unnatural, more a product of the politics of the German-Italian Alliance and of Hitler’s and Mussolini’s relationship rather than a representation of any anti-Semitism or racism on the Italians’ behalf. Italian Jews, who would be persecuted under the new legislation, had always played an active part in Fascism and there was never any previous history of animosity between the Fascist regime and Italy’s Jews, Mussolini’s former mistress for example was a Jewess. While Africans were not viewed as “subhuman animals” by the Italian Fascists as they were by the Nazis. The popular Fascist song "Faccetta nera", represents a truly enlightened and Roman-inspired view when it comes to the treatment of other nations and races, one that is a complete opposite of the brutal, genocidal views of their Nazi allies. The song is about a little girl who is found by Italian soldiers after the invasion of Ethiopia. And the lyrics go something like “We will take you to Rome and you will have new laws and a new king! You will be a blackshirt and your flag will be Italian! We will march together in front of your king and your Duce! You will be a Roman!” These ideological differences, little and subtle as they may be in the beginning could well be the basis of a future fracturing in Italian-German relations, just as Sino-Soviet ideological differences were.

Another important factor that would contribute to reforms in the Italian fascist regime and a subsequent Split with Germany would be; the presence of anti-Nazi, reformist and republican tendencies in the highest ranks of the Fascist leadership. With candidates for the next Duce, like Count Ciano, Italo Balbo and Dino Grandi, there is plenty of potential for reform in the Fascist enterprise, in a post-Mussolini era. Abolishing the unpopular and unnatural Race Laws after the death of Mussolini, possibly coupled with polices of further reform and liberalization, would not seem like such a mad, reckless and unimaginable move to anyone of these possible successors. It is not even the Italian decision of abolishing the Race Laws that would cause the split but rather the vehement German reaction, who would insist on a “racially-pure Europe”. This reaction would consist of heavy pressure and condemnation from the Germans to reinstate the Race Laws, which would make it an issue of national integrity to the Italians, to hold on to their decision to abandon the Race Laws. This crisis coupled with Italy’s newfound power, a culmination of decades’ worth of growth and development from a third-rate power in the 30’s to a major regional power capable of challenging German hegemony by the beginning of the 60’s, could well be what would trigger the Italian divorce from the German order.

Another thing, an integral part of the original Italian Fascist ideology is expansionism and it is not difficult to imagine the emergence of new expansionist aims to replace the fulfilled ones, of irredentism from the Mussolini generation. Again, what is to stop the Italians from wanting more? The same trends that Italy underwent after World War I, that of being on the victorious side of a war, but “wanting more” and “feeling left out” or second place to greater powers, could reemerge in a victorious post-World War II Fascist Italy. These new aims would most likely call for complete Italian hegemony and dominance over the Mediterranean and Southern Europe, as opposed to a German-dominated Northern Europe, where Italy would live out its dreams of a new Roman Empire and claim its rightful place as leader of the “Latin races”, as opposed to the “Germanic and so-called Aryan”, and it is from these possible developments that I drew up ATL Italy’s plans for the creation of a “Latin Union”.

There are also several possible economic reasons that could precipitate an Italo-German Split. Although as I mentioned in my post, Italy has a healthy market in the European Alliance, I imagine that her economic pursuits outside the European sphere would be greatly restrained by German barriers. Doing business with America and indulging in the lucrative markets outside of Europe would most likely be frowned upon by Berlin. There would also be, I imagine, a primacy of German products when it comes to the European market, so Italian business would have to be engaged in an unfair competition with German counterparts. Italian economic development would also be capped by the Germans and subjected to the uniformed policy whims of the German-controlled EEC or European Alliance as it is known in this TL. So, Italian desires to break free from these economic restraints could also be a foremost motive in splitting with Germany.
 
Thats all sound, but if the Italians are an equal partner, there is little chance of them feeling "left out". Think about it, Germany has already agreed to split Europe into a German zone and an Italian zone. As in OTL, the Germans didnt invade Italian-controlled territorries unless asked to do so. At least until the Italians were in the war. So as opposed to the Tito-Stalin split, one didnt wish to controll the other. If this sticks to post-war Europe, the Italians could do whatever the hell they want in their zone, while the Germans were preocupied with Germanising their Eurozone, controlling Africa, spreading Nazism and the Space + Arms race. You would have a partnership rather than what the Soviets wanted. Perhaps even the German-Italian-Spanish alliance would help the Space and Arms race against the USA. So it would be in their best interest to be friendly with Germany, even though their ideology was slightly different.


And the Fachist Italians would have never let Immigration to Europe happen. They killed and tortured the non-Italian white nationes in their zones. Even if they would abolish Race Laws, its doubtful they would ever treat the non-Italians as their equals. There is a very large gap between not considering someone as an articulated animal, and having an equalitarian stance twoards that someone.
 
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Han ASD

Banned
Nou Românesc - state press
07.07.1969

The engagement of Margarita, Princess of Romania, Princess of Hohenzollern, Princess of Bucureşti with Simeon II the Tzar of Bulgaria should be concluded at holy city of Jerusalem where two lovers are in wedding trip.
In part of the deal in region near bulgarian city of Bor Rumanian should be pronounced as co-official due to rumanian majority in these region, so should be with Bulgarian language for the minorities at Basarabien provinces. Additional free and demilitarized border between two country so our citizen should easy go at white sea in a vacation or in shoping tour in Rouse and in our palace near Balchik.

between the lines

Mass communist demonstration in rumanian city of Odesuva is surpressed yesterday, the leader of demonstrator our leading rocket specialist and aeroplan constructor Valentyn Petresku Glusku was arrested for using of illiteral language and denial of identification as a rumanian. He in moment of maddness he declared that he is ukrainian by nationality - he was sended in mental hospital. Also many of demonstrators are sended in different mental-hospital ward in country due to their denial of Rumanian nationality.

The Siguranţa statului published demographic view of the country. As we expected the rumanian nationality declared are almost 93% of the nation the other are nationality are: 3% german, and 2.5% bulgarian and 1% magyar and 0.5% others (turkish, tatar, russian ect.)



 

Deleted member 5719

The Times, 17th November, 1957.

Jew-Bolshevik brought to Justice by the Reich!

The notorious Jew-Communist, Lev Bronstein was executed today by an extra-territorial unit of the Waffen-SS, operating in Mexico. He is considered one of the fathers of the mass-murdering Marxist USSR, in whose holocaust more than five million Aryans are thought to have perished. The degenerate-Semite, murderer and race mixer was known by a series of aliases, including Leon Trotsky, Leon Braun and Emmanuel Goldstein. Though the odious Hebrew was protected by the forces of the Jew-loving, Bolshevik, Mex-American lickspittles, the brave…

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Telegram: Ernesto Jeminguey, Mexico D.F, to P.O’Brian, Corrigan’s Bar, Boston, Mass.:
11/18/57: Just back from Uncle Manny’s medical examination STOP No doubt it was a stroke STOP Absolutely NOT something he ate STOP Uncle Hermann full of it as usual STOP Up to you how to proceed STOP E.O.M

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New York Post, 19/11/57
“The Red Alex Hamilton” was murdered by Nazi scum

Pentagon sources confirmed today that the 78 year-old Russian revolutionary, patriot and freedom fighter, Leon Trotsky, was poisoned by a Nazi death squad, though precise details remain unclear. Trotsky, a living symbol of Socialist opposition to the Nazi jackboot, was one of the most recognizable human beings alive, thanks to the famous portrait “Emmanuel Goldstein” by his wife, Freda Kahlo. His writings inspired a generation of….

(From Appendix to "The Strange Death of A Bolshevik" by Michael Foot. New Gollancz Press, Toronto 1968)
 
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