Black Boots, White Snow - A collborative Nazi Victory TL

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The Italo-German Split from A Concise History of Modern Europe, 3rd Edition (Columbia University Press, 1998)

The ascension of Count Galeazzo Ciano to the post of Prime Minister after the death of Mussolini in 1959 and his subsequent implementation of new policies of liberalization, quasi-democratization and colonial reform, and most especially his reversal of the Nazi-inspired Italian Race Laws of 1938 and the regime's general relaxation of anti-miscegenation laws caused a massive rift in the previously thriving Italo-German Alliance. The GGR’s Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribberntrop responded to the new, subversive Italian leadership by sending a series of ultimatums to Rome, threatening economic sanctions and even a possible suspension from the European Alliance if Italy did not abandon its liberal policies. Ciano however remained steadfast with his new line of policy and persistently ignored German threats. He and his ministers speculated that vital German stakes in Libyan oil would counter the ideological outrage in Berlin and for the time being prevent the Germans from doing anything more than sending out aggressive threats. However the German Fuhrer himself, Herman Goering made it clear to the world that the Ciano regime could not be tolerated for long with an inflammatory speech he gave to the Reichstag on 22 November, 1959;

“We gave Italy everything it has, its wealth, its power, its so-called Empire! Its alliance with the Reich was the sole reason it stands today as among the respectable powers of the world. And now Italy has turned on her one true ally and friend to pursue a path of reckless liberalization and senseless self-destruction. If this is allowed to continue then Italy will become the poison that will corrupt our European brotherhood from the very heart! It will be the destruction of the strong, free, united Europe that we had so valiantly fought for twenty years ago!

By the sacred and holy memory of the First Fuhrer, I shall not let this happen! Heil Hitler!”

The crisis reached a turning point on the 26th of November when military tensions flared up along the alpine border between Italy and the Reich as border guards aided by paramilitary forces on both sides prepared for a confrontation. The recent Italian acquisition of atomic technology made this affair far more dangerous and complicated than any crisis that Europe had ever had to face since the war. Hysteria engulfed the continent and America watched with glee at the possibility that Fascist Europe might destroy itself with Secretary of State John Foster Dulles commenting “Here we are worrying and commiserating about how to destroy Fascism and well, now it just looks like as if the Fascists themselves might make the job a lot easier by destroying each other.” The German High Command began reviewing War Plan Olive, its secret plans for a hitherto unthinkable invasion of the Italian peninsula and the dismantling of its North African dominions while the Italian Army was just a few orders away from mobilization. However cooler heads and pragmatism eventually prevailed and a secret meeting conducted between Ribberntrop and the influential Italian Deputy Prime Minister, Dino Grandi on the 7th of December in Geneva, was able defuse the crisis successfully and any possibility of war was conclusively prevented. However the underlying political tensions between the two powers remained.

Agents of the Gestapo, shortly after the end of the Alpine Crisis in mid-December, discovered clandestine communications between the Italians and the Auphan regime in Paris. The German press immediately seized on the new intelligence and revealed to the European public, Italian attempts to persuade France to join her in a joint withdrawal from the EA and in the creation of a new entity that would permanently oppose German hegemony on the continent, a so-called “Latin Union”. France, even after unification in 1950 was famously oppressed and disgruntled by German economic domination and was seen by Ciano as the best possible ally in standing up to Germany. This new crisis polarized Europe and led to demonstrations in the streets of Paris, Madrid and Lisbon, the Latin capitals of Europe and for a moment, it seemed Italy with the support of these popular demonstrations, would gain the upper hand and the “Latin Union” approached reality. But the decisive actions of the Euromacht immediately, brutally crushed these spontaneous attempts at resistance and by late-December, the situation had returned to the status-quo.

The New Year and the opening of a new decade was greeted by Europe with a sense of fear and uncertainty as this great crisis lingered on and remained unresolved. The Ciano regime had uncovered the inevitable link between the Nazis in Berlin and the Fascist hardliners at home, who gathered around the person of Cesare Maria de Vecchi, a Fascist old guard and March on Rome veteran. The new Duce immediately ordered these hardliners be put under house arrest. Goering and the rest of the German leadership, frustrated and beyond humiliated by perhaps the greatest affront to German hegemony, now turned to Reinhard Heydrich of the SS who since the beginning of the crisis, had been drawing up plans for a viable way to end the Ciano regime without the risk of atomic war. Heydrich’s Operation Geist gave detailed plans for the assassination of the entire Ciano cabinet. On January 10, 1960 German agent Franz Dietrichs and a team of eight Albanian resistance members, working from the rooftop of a twenty storey building fired rockets into a meeting of the Fascist Grand Council at the Hotel Roma. Hiding under the table as the rockets shattered the rooftop of their meeting place, the Fascist Grand Council had miraculously survived this violent onslaught. An abortive German-supported putsch from the Fascist hardliners which aimed to install de Vecchi as Duce,was crushed by the Army and the Blackshirts as the embattled Ciano regime struggled to hold on to power.

This deadliest, most intolerable and most unforgivable offense finally pushed Italy to initiate the most decisive and effective course of action it would take in this crisis. On the 13th of January, 1960, the Duce, Gazeallo Ciano announced to his people;

“Centuries ago, the Germanic hordes, with all their barbarism and their backwardness and their tyranny, descended upon Italy and destroyed civilization, plunging Europe into the Dark Ages. Today, we see that history is repeating itself except that in this instance, the forces of civilization shall strike back! In this instance, the forces of civilization shall triumph!”

This bold speech was not followed by a declaration of war as most in the world had predicted and feared (or in some cases hoped) but rather it was followed by a single, stern order from the Duce. All exports of Libyan oil to Germany and Europe was halted and the Suez Canal, which Hitler had given full control of to Mussolini as a gift on the latter’s birthday in 1949 was closed to all German and European vessels. To enforce this new order, the Italian Navy was called to action, blockading all strategic ports in the Eastern Mediterranean. In the most regretful and cruel of ironies, this force which had been nearly a joke at the beginning of the Second World War was so generously furnished by German funds and technology throughout the late forties and fifties, and so greatly enhanced by the tearing apart of the late Royal Navy, that it was powerful enough to carry out the Duce’s orders, and to top it all off Italian agents had managed to lend enough support to the notorious Caucasian resistance group, the Kobashvili, so that they could perform their greatest stunt, the “Burning of Baku”, a series of strategic terrorist bombings that decimated the German petroleum and synthetic petroleum industries as the city possesed the Reich's highest concentration of oil refineries and synthetic plants.

At first, the mighty colossus that was the Greater German Reich, which extended from the British Isles to the Ural Mountains, carried on and continued thriving unhindered by “Italy’s silly, little embargo” which seemed to the Reich “like nothing but the annoyances of a pesky mosquito”. It slowly rebuilt over the burning ruins of Baku and increased the production of synthetic oils. Heydrich swore revenge for the bombings and provided support for the bombing of Italy’s own oil fields at the hands of Berber nationalist insurgents. Goering installed a new and more loyal, more reliable and more radical regime in France that of Jacques Doriot’s Parti Social Francais’ and it seemed that everything would return to order and normalcy.

But by late 1960 and into the first few months of 1961, the Reich began to feel the sharp stings of pesky Italy’s little embargo. The rebuilding of a decade’s worth of petroleum infrastructure proved to be a difficult and costly task, while the attempted development of the Reich’s native petroleum industries in the Volga and German Ural regions was much hindered by the chaos of the ongoing guerrilla war, and the Reich’s precious internal oil reserves were diminished greatly in the years of 1960-1961. So Germany was forced to look in desperation to those left who were willing to sell petroleum, none other than its own enemies; the Americans who owned every oilfield from Kurdistan to Khuzestan and Lavrenty Beria’s GAZPROM. Only at unbearable prices, which included portions of its national dignity, could the Reich replenish its petroleum reserves. The Fuhrer even considered plans to launch an invasion of the Yamal Oblast, the oil-rich region of the USSR which was just a hair’s breadth away from the Reich’s easternmost borders but the American troops stationed there made any such invasion, nothing less than a trigger for atomic war. As the Reich’s coffers were being bled dry, German propaganda did however do an excellent job of downplaying and covering up the growing oil crisis, both to the world and to its own people, but the citizens of the GGR could not help but wonder why their previously bountiful and near-paradisaical lives as members of the supreme Herrenvolk, kept getting harder and harder.

Meanwhile Italy, capturing the hearts and minds of the non-Nazi world with its staunch, unflinching defiance of Berlin was congratulated by every world leader outside from outside of the German sphere, from the President in Washington to the Generalissimo in Nanking. The historic visit of Vice President Johnson to Rome in 1960 was seen by the Germans as an offense and the launch of Italian satellite Garibaldi the following year in 1961 insulted Germany once more, as all previous Italian attempts to reach the stars were subservient to Germany’s. However beneath a glorious facade of independence and self-determination, Italy too, just as Germany was, suffering a slow economic stagnation. With nobody to buy its oil, as the European Alliance was virtually its only market, and the lack of German and European expertise to manage its oil refineries, the Ciano regime realized the folly of its audacious embargo.

It is said that it was the stress of finding a solution to the oil crisis that killed the German Fuhrer in the beginning of 1962. But his successor Wilhelm Frick assumed the Fuhrership with an air of fresh pragmatism as he was immediately willing to reconcile with Italy, to bring an end the crippling oil crisis and restore order to Europe. Realizing that the state of relations between Germany and Italy could never return to the way it was in the days of the First Fuhrer and the first Duce, Frick sent out feelers to the Italians, hinting that the Reich was ready to negotiate with terms agreeable to Rome. German and Italian delegations met at Bern, Switzerland to work out the preliminary terms that would lead to a resumption of friendly or at least non-hostile relations between the two. The Italians found out that what had disturbed the Germans the most about Ciano’s liberal policies was the abolition of the Race Laws which Mussolini had introduced under pressure from Hitler. “Jews and Negroes would be allowed to reenter the shores of Europe through Italy and that would be the end of us all” Himmler once commented on Ciano’s decision to abandon the Race Laws. The Italians decided after much commiseration, that they were willing to introduce a toned down version of the Race Laws which would satisfy the German requirement for racial separation. Ciano did not give in to the German demands to reduce his nation’s naval might and give up control of the Suez, but he did agree to reduce his nation’s already meager atomic arsenal however, if the GGR was willing to listen to Italy’s demands.

Independence, from the whims of Berlin, was what Italy wanted most. Although already a fact as proven by Italy’s actions since 1959, that Italy possessed enough of this desired independence and self-sufficiency to do what it wished, Ciano wanted German assent. The chief German negotiator Count von Krosigk after contacting his superiors in Berlin told the Italians that the Germans would be willing to “respect the bounds of Italian power as long as it did not extend past the bounds of the Italian realm”. The Germans also wanted Italian assurance that it would abandon all future attempts to create a Latin Union. Italy meanwhile would not be expelled from the European Alliance but its power within the organization was severely reduced, demoting it from a status second only to Germany, where it could veto motions in the European Parliament, to a status shared by the likes of Spain and Greece, where it could do nothing but submit a second-class vote. But the Italians figured that since all power in that organization was ultimately in the hands of Germany anyway, their position in the EA meant nothing. Demands that the head of the SS write an apology addressed to the Duce for Operation Geist were turned down just as an Italian admission of guilt for the Burning of Baku was rejected.

Preliminary terms for reconciliation were agreed upon and a meeting between high-level leaders from both nations, was set for the 22nd of May, 1964, the 25th anniversary of the Pact of Steel which none other than then-Foreign Minister, Count Ciano had signed on behalf of his father-in-law. Meeting in the palatial Galleria Vittorio Emmanuele II in Milan on the historic date, Deputy Prime Minister Dino Grandi shook hands with his German counterpart, Arthur Seyss-Inquart and proceeded to sign the Milan Agreement which restored some semblance of a friendly relationship between Berlin and Rome although just as Frick had believed, the fraternal alliance from the era of the Pact of Steel was irretrievably lost, though it was not much missed by anyone, other than the extreme right-wing of the Fascist Party. As soon as the Agreement was ratified, Italian exports of Libyan oil to Germany and Europe were resumed and the German, Italian and European economies regained the lost momentum of four years of stagnation. Italy was able to continue with its liberal policies without fear of German intervention, which paved the way for President Jackson's historic visit to Rome in 1976, Italy’s eventual withdrawal from the European Alliance in 1984, the Italian Democratic Revolution of 1989 and Italy’s role in the founding of the new European Commonwealth in 1994.
 
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OOC: I like your post, Hamburger, except for one detail: you mention a Weygand administration in 1959. While it's possible he would still be in control of France, he would be an astonishing 92 at this time...perhaps someone younger could be found instead?

EDIT: Such as Gabriel Auphan, who was Petain's selected replacement in 1944 and who would have been in his 60's in 1959, or Paul Baudoin, who in OTL negotiated the terms of France's surrender and served as Petain's Foreign Minister: he might be the sort to eventually start diplomatic conniving.
 
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OOC: Bravo, excellent post.

IC:
Forward from: India in the New Commonwealth
New India Publishing House
1998

Many people say that Canada is the head of the New Commonwealth. They say it has the Queen, the Victoria Castle, it is usually the Head Chairman of the Commonwealth Council, and they started the entire ball rolling.
And they are right.
But what is often overlooked in the Western world is that India is the heart. If India had not agreed to support the New Commonwealth it would have fallen. Most of the Asian and African members only follow the New Commonwealth because India is there supporting them. As this excellent book will show, India was and is still the linchpin that holds it all together.
In 1940, anyone who thought India would remain in the British Commonwealth without a major war would have been laughed down. Mahatma Ghandi's peaceful protests, as well as the great efforts by Independence leaders Shaheed Bhagat Singh, and Veerapandiya Kattabomman were all hurting British rule, and bringing us closer to independence.
With the fall of Britain, many thought that we would finally achieve independence. We were saddened by the fate that had befallen the British people, but were happy to see the light at the end of our own tunnel.
Unfortunately things are never clear cut in India.
Delegates from the British Government in Exile with a large Canadian contingent began immediate talks with the Indian National Congress on a plan to not only remain in the Commonwealth, but become one of the lead members of the New Commonwealth. The All India Forward party led by Subhas Bose was opposed to any talks.
As will be explored in this book, the various attempts at disruption by the AIF, along with strong protests by British hardliners in the West, almost destroyed everything. The assassination of the lead Canadian diplomat Lester B. Pearson in 1944 was nearly the breaking point. The British police and soldiers were given conflicting orders, and the AIF supporters paraded on the street.
As a martyr Lester B. Pearson gave peace to India. Mahatma Ghandi had been given full documentation of the Nazi atrocities, and they had filled him with disgust. Combined with the assassination of a man who had promised that no matter what, India would be free at the end of the negotiations, convinced him about what he must do, he rallied his supporters.
His supporters peacefully took to the streets and demanded peace on all sides. The British police and military were immediately ordered to stand down, and the AIF lost most of its support.
By the end of 1945 after many long and occasionally stormy negotiations India was declared an independent country, but as the first act of the Indian Parliament it agreed to join the New Commonwealth as an ally and full member.
With the lessons learned from India, the New Commonwealth was able to successfully bring in the majority of former British colonies. More importantly with India's promise to prevent the domination that had occurred in the old British Commonwealth, it was believed that things would be different.
Fortunately for the world that belief has been proven true.
 
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Herz der Schwärzung

From, Fastpedia, the free publically supported encyclodia

Herz der Schwärzung is a 1989 German epic war film set during the events of the First Eastern Uprising (1959-1965). The plot revolves around two SS special operations officers, one of whom, Captain Hans Meyer is sent into the forests of Latvia to assassinate the other, a rogue and presumably insane Colonel Walter Kurtz. The film was produced and directed by Fritz Conrad.

The film became notorious for being heavily censored in Germany due to its realistic and controversial depiction of life in the German controlled ex-Russia as well as ruthless treatment of local untermensch and anti partisan tactics (including the famous scene where a helicopter guns down civilians in a village by the Dvina). Because of this, the release date of the film was delayed several times as Conrad struggled to come up with an ending and to edit the millions of feet of footage that he had shot.

There are rumors Hollywood veteran, Francis Ford Coppola, is going to come out of retirement to direct a fully uncensored, uncut take of the movie under the tentative English title Apocalypse Now.
 
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Adolf Hitler 2 August 1934-3 July 1954
OOC: I'm really not sure about this date. Firstly, from what I know, Hitler was pumped full of all kinds of drugs by his quack doctor, and was probably going to die soon as a consequence.

Secondly, when I put together TTL's Israel, I was working under the assumption that Hitler would die shortly after the war. Thus, with no one in the Nazi leadership having a consistent policy with respect to getting rid of the jews, the Holocaust was stopped and dismantled, and there were enough Jews to send them to Madagascar. If Hitler had lived this long, there would probably not be enough Jews left in Europe to create any kind of functional settler state.
 
OOC: I'm really not sure about this date. Firstly, from what I know, Hitler was pumped full of all kinds of drugs by his quack doctor, and was probably going to die soon as a consequence.

Secondly, when I put together TTL's Israel, I was working under the assumption that Hitler would die shortly after the war. Thus, with no one in the Nazi leadership having a consistent policy with respect to getting rid of the jews, the Holocaust was stopped and dismantled, and there were enough Jews to send them to Madagascar. If Hitler had lived this long, there would probably not be enough Jews left in Europe to create any kind of functional settler state.

OOC: I was operating under the assumption that Hitler may have kinda sort of been losing it towards the end, and indeed probably had no actual power (going insane from syphilis), but no one was really going to give him the boot while he was still alive.

Secondly: The first POD is from 1933 ---> butterflies are our friends. Hitler may have simply OK'd the Madagascar Plan ITTL, especially since it appears that France and Britain were both conquered sometime in 1940-41, 1942 at the latest, meaning it could be implemented immediately. Same goes for the doctor: different doctor, different health.
 
OOC: Is my bit that explains how America defeated Japan and recieved a huge ally in unified nationalist China canon here?
 

Deleted member 5719

OOC: Is my bit that explains how America defeated Japan and recieved a huge ally in unified nationalist China canon here?

Yes it is, but we know it happened some time after 1956, and was ended by nuclear bombs on Kyoto and Hiroshima. So the US-Japan war started much later, and was probably much shorter, as the US based entries don't make a big deal out of it.
 

Deleted member 5719

PRO-NAZI COUP DEFEATED AT BUENOS AIRES



A Cabal Pro-German Officers has been arrested today on charges of treason and mutiny today as several Units throughout Buenos Aires Province have started an uprising against the Democratically elected Government.

General Osiris Villegas, Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces and the loyalist units from Campo de Mayo that quelled the pro-Nazi attempt, has today announced the beginning of martial law and declared the state of national emergency, with the tacit approval of the Federalist Populist, Workers’, Socialist and Communist Parties, as well as that of the governing UCR and constitutionally elected President Juan Carlos Pugliese, who has been missing since the beginning of the military crisis today.


[Taken from the Buenos Aires Herald, October of 1973]



Note: Peron was never elected ITTL, Unless there's something I skipped...

Nothing says he was, but we know Argentina was part of a pro-German grouping in 1960. Nothing you write here contradicts that though, so fair enough.
 
Signal Magazin
Hamburg
30 August 1986

Dear Standartenfuhrer Becker!

In light of the amazing "conversion" story you have accomplished in the life of a formerly misguided but now happy and well-adjusted and reforming British youth, Signal would like to showcase your story throughout the English speaking world, with possible further distribution in other racially advanced parts of the Reich. We would of course include many color photographs of yourself and the young man in question, whose name I believe is James Bellows.

It is still incredible to consider how you handled the attempt on your life when this young man, then aged 14, tried to stab you to death as you spoke at a school assembly about opportunities to serve the Fatherland. In most circumstances, such an attack upon an officer of the SS would have resulted in immediate execution of the offender and appropriate further sanctions against his family. Fortunately, as a result of your SS training, you were able to defend yourself and received only minor wounds to your right arm. What was unexpected was that you intervened to prevent this young man's execution and instead praised him for his courage, comparing him favorably to those who cowardly set off car bombs or write slogans on walls in the dark of night.

As I recall you saying, it was not a problem that he hated something or someone, but that his hatred was misplaced. And you assured him that if his strength and courage could be more appropriately directed, he would be an excellent servant of the Reich. And now, as I understand it, he is preparing for his "confirmation" ceremony in London and with your recommendation will attend one of the leadership schools in the Fatherland upon completion of German language studies. It is fortunate that despite his previous emnity, he has been given a satisfactory racial classification. Indeed, given the unfortunate behavior of our previous "Latin" allies, the question of race has become ever more important in strengthening the Reich.

Because of your wisdom, a potential enemy of the Reich is being turned into an asset ... without brutality but with encouragement. This story must be shared! The value to our Fatherland is incalculable.

With greatest respect,

/s/ Friedrich Wallenstein
Editor in Chief
Signal Magazin
 
OOC: I was operating under the assumption that Hitler may have kinda sort of been losing it towards the end, and indeed probably had no actual power (going insane from syphilis), but no one was really going to give him the boot while he was still alive.

Secondly: The first POD is from 1933 ---> butterflies are our friends. Hitler may have simply OK'd the Madagascar Plan ITTL, especially since it appears that France and Britain were both conquered sometime in 1940-41, 1942 at the latest, meaning it could be implemented immediately. Same goes for the doctor: different doctor, different health.

OOC: My post concerning the evacuation of Britain (which is the only one with a timetable on the matter, and maybe the first to go into detail with previous entries only hinting that Britain fell) kinda hinted at the Sea Mammal with the whole "Sometime in Fall" thing -:eek::eek::eek:- but I didn't give a specific date, so it's anyone's game I suppose.

But, Hitler will probably pull off the Holocaust. Remember, history is not what you like, it's what happened and good alternate history is what was probable rather than what you want.

But, we can always say Hitler started to go senile and that the men behind him (Goebbels and such) ended the genocide in the later 40's because of "cost reasons" and exiled the Jews (and Socialists, Social Democrats, Liberals, Libertarians, Communists, Homosexuals, Cripples and others in the camps) across the seas and overland.

Btw, the current Presidents are:

1953-1961: Adlai Stevenson/Lyndon B. Johnson
1961-1965?/1969?: Lyndon B. Johnson/ Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
1965?/1969?-1973: William Knowland/ George W. Romney
1973-?: Henry Jackson/?
 
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Eurofed

Banned
But, Hitler will probably pull off the Holocaust.

OOC: you forget that the Final Solution was not the original plan. Deportation was, the Holocaust was devised as an alternative solution beacuse with war with britain and America still raging, deportation overseas was no longer feasible.
 
OOC: you forget that the Final Solution was not the original plan. Deportation was, the Holocaust was devised as an alternative solution beacuse with war with britain and America still raging, deportation overseas was no longer feasible.

OOC: Deportation in the ways considered by the Reich wasn't feasible for the Nazi's because the British ruled the waves and was in conflict with Germany, as were many other people, and the war still happened from all signs, minus America who was concerned with the Pacific. And the Genocide was already raging since before that, if not in full swing. And a British remnant out of Canada still ruled the dominion after Britain fell.
 

Eurofed

Banned
OOC: Deportation wasn't feasible for the Nazi's because the British ruled the waves and was in conflict with Germany.

OOC: Was not Britain defeated relativelty early in WWII ? That was my impression. Or did the kinda-Unspeakable Sea Mammal came after the Soviets croaked ? I'm confused. :confused:

And the Genocide was already raging since before that, if not in full swing.

The point of no return was the Wannsee Conference.

And a British remnant out of Canada still ruled the dominion after Britain fell.

This Commonwealth wanking is getting more and more amusing. Apparently the RN has been knocked down enough that the Nazi manage to occupy Britain, yet somehow it manages to evacuate tons of people to Canada and to rule the seas nonetheless. I smell alien guys flapping their wings.

If you say that Britain falls after the Soviets, that's a very good reason why the Holocaust proceeds all the same. But the Commonwealth wanking is not.
 
OOC: Was not Britain defeated relativelty early in WWII ? That was my impression. Or did the kinda-Unspeakable Sea Mammal came after the Soviets croaked ? I'm confused. :confused:
OOC:The British were occupied in Fall of some year, likely a few years after "the creature" was planned by my opinion. I'd date it '42 or '41.



The point of no return was the Wannsee Conference.
And the British would likely have fallen either after that or in a manner where deportation is still not possible. The Nazi's can't occupy the British Empire, nor will British abroad accept whatever puppet they set up in London that says they're the authority. And deportation relies on somewhere for the Nazi's to deport to.

The overall message is you can occupy Britain but not the British Empire (and the German's haven't from all things here I believe), and the Nazi's would need the British Empire or regions of it to deport to and that it'd be most importantly willing to deport to (since that would essentially make that area a zone given up), and hence deportation remains rather impossible for the German's.


This Commonwealth wanking is getting more and more amusing. Apparently the RN has been knocked down enough that the Nazi manage to occupy Britain, yet somehow it manages to evacuate tons of people to Canada and to rule the seas nonetheless. I smell alien guys flapping their wings.

If you say that Britain falls after the Soviets, that's a very good reason why the Holocaust proceeds all the same. But the Commonwealth wanking is not.
OOC: From everything said, the Royal Navy takes a beating, but was still sailing around in some form. Similarly, ships can be built once the crown flees to Canada over ensuing decades. And there is a major point of a "Reality is too wankish" syndrome contention here on the evacuation. The British managed to get tons of shipments between it and the US in the OTL. Some of those vessels sank, and many got through, and you'd see a similar thing with evacuation; some got sank, some got through (and they all had varying levels of protection by armed vessels as the cargo ships did). And even if the Germans decimate the RN, the British still have plenty of sea they can get through since I'd say the bulk of Germany's navy would be occupied with the Channel and deep Atlantic than the immediate British west coast. And there's always the possibility of aerial invasion to forego the Royal Navy.
 
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OOC: Was not Britain defeated relativelty early in WWII ? That was my impression. Or did the kinda-Unspeakable Sea Mammal came after the Soviets croaked ? I'm confused. :confused:
I assumed it was defeated after a Long Battle of Britain type campaign that eventually wore away British resolve, and probably with an increasing number of raids using air cover. The Nazi's moving in was only after a receptive government was already in place. Again this is my assumption as nothing much of the actual invasion was stated.

This Commonwealth wanking is getting more and more amusing. Apparently the RN has been knocked down enough that the Nazi manage to occupy Britain, yet somehow it manages to evacuate tons of people to Canada and to rule the seas nonetheless. I smell alien guys flapping their wings.

If you say that Britain falls after the Soviets, that's a very good reason why the Holocaust proceeds all the same. But the Commonwealth wanking is not.
Who said the RN ruled the sea? Like Emperor said about the only thing we can assume is that it took a beating, but managed to evacuate successfully.
Now I realize I said in one of my early posts written IC as a British editor that the British evacuees AND there children made up a large part of the Canadian army, but it has never been stated how big the army actually is. If we use OTL army, its pretty pathetic in size. If we assume its large it still doesn't have to be a massive army full of angry British refugees. Many of them could be raw recruits born in the late 40's in the first wave of evacuations, who got in because their parents pushed them.

Now about the moving the Jews to Madagascar, personally I'd have put them into the far North occupied Russia. But I didn't speak up soon enough so it stands ITTL. One possibility is the leaders of the Commonwealth decided that a Very cold war was preferable to a hot war in the ensuing chaos. Thus allowing Germany and its allies to move the Jews successfully to Vichy Madagascar after a few years of building up its merchant navy.
In this scenario, Nazi Germany probably worked a million or two Jews to death in slave camps, but realizing they were winning may have waited for the Final Solution. So its painful and very dangerous to be a Jew, but not suicidal.
 
The Coming Collapse of the German Empire
1996, Alexander. B. Scott, Chicago Publishing Group

"It had really started since the early 90's, as the world started to enter what we now know, as the modern era. Cell phones by 1985 were becoming very popular, while in 1989 the the personal computer, with most running the Apollo Operation System, started to spring up in houses all around the world. But 1989 is not a special date because the Computer started to become common for the average American family, it was because of something as simple as one computer connection to another computer, now known as, The Internet. We would not know it at the time, but what we were watching take form in those first few years would be nothing short of amazing, and its effects on the world would be nothing short of huge.

It all dealt with one simple thing, information. With the Internet, the ability to connect with people around the world in less than a second, and many common sites like Global and Fastpedia, the amount of information that was available to the average person grew, and it grew at a rate unheard of at the time. Within a decade the average joe could learn about things that were 500 years in the past, or happening right now in a country that was on the other side of the world. The Internet could offer anyone anything they wanted to know at no cost, and it's in that, that one simple ability, that the grip that the Nazi's had on there poeple would start to collapse. Though it took longer and much more slower than the west, Germany slowly but surly started to adopt the useful invention that was the cell phone, computer, and even the Internet. However, it would not be until 1991 that it would be put to full use... when a small part of the Greek Liberation Front in the Greek country side used the internet to organize some of there efforts aganist there enemy, the use of cell phones also helped them in there main goal, bombing the local German military HQ in Athens. Ever since then the Internet has become a force of Liberation and of Freedom for the peoples of Europe. It has become obvious really, as group after group has started to use these new means of fighting to there full advantage, organizing, merging, growing, spreading. It is in this authors best judgement, that the technology that was invented by Americans, will no doubt lead to the downfall of the German Empire, not from outside forces or in a great war, but from within the German Empire itself. "
 
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Dom

Moderator
Hmm just to ask, does this seem possible?

The Collapse of the German Empire
2009, Alexander. B. Scott, Chicago Publishing Group

"It had really started since the early 90's, as the world started to enter what we now know, as the modern era. Cell phones by 1985 were becoming very popular, while in 1989 the the personal computer, with most running the Apollo Operation System, started to spring up in houses all around the world. But 1989 is not a special date because the Computer started to become common for the average American family, it was because of something as simple as one computer connection to another computer, now known as, The Internet. We would not know it at the time, but what we were watching take form in those first few years would be nothing short of amazing, and its effects on the world would be nothing short of huge.

It all dealt with one simple thing, information. With the Internet, the ability to connect with people around the world in less than a second, and many common sites like Global and Wikipedia, the amount of information that was available to the average person grew, and it grew at a rate unheard of at the time. Within a decade the average joe could learn about things that were 500 years in the past, or happening right now in a country that was on the other side of the world. The Internet could offer anyone anything they wanted to know at no cost, and it's in that, that one simple ability, that the true reasons behind the great collapse would form. Though it took longer and much more slower than the west, Germany slowly but surly started to adopt the useful invention that was the cell phone, computer, and even the Internet. However, it would not be until 1991 that it would be put to full use... when a small part of the Greek Liberation Front in the Greek country side used the internet to organize some of there efforts aganist there enemy, and from then on out a new way for the rebels too organize, to fight back, to spread the word, to receive help, would be used, and this one was quite effective. "

Read the first post - :(

2. All docs must be written after 1965, before 2000.
 

Deleted member 5719

Hmm just to ask, does this seem possible?

-snip-

Generally, yes. But the rules are, strictly nothing written after 2000. Also "wikipedia" doesn't exist, its equivalent is called "Fastpedia". Can you retcon to reflect this?

As to the exact mechanics of the Nazi victory, debated by Eurofed and the others, we're not that bothered how it happened here, but the invasion was not sealion, because a 1933 POD (ingeniously set by PLO-Style) means so many unknowns (both Rumsfeldian and non-Rumsfeldian), that it butterflies away everything leading up to our WWII.
 
Aww and I wanted to see Nazi like soviet collapse :p but post edited, I hope it meets the rules now. Also just to say, my thinking around this is that, things like computers and cell phones would pop up earlier due to much more advance R&D and a mroe advance space program. So, you have in a few years you go from unorganized local liberation groups, to large groups working together, that are causing huge trouble for Berlin.
 
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