Black Boots, White Snow - A collborative Nazi Victory TL

  • Thread starter Deleted member 5719
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OOC: You're correct about Frick...that's why I put him in, because another poster stated that Himmler was basically running things, yet not actually Fuhrer. A doddering Frick and a sycophantic Seyss-Inquart are thus perfect fuhrers for a Himmler wielding power behind the throne.

I'll edit out Speer so you can put in Heinz Hitler.

Present is 2000.

Blech, Himmler ... an unattractive character even by Nazi standards. Imagine that little toad running things.

I think Seyss-Inquart would be a brilliant front man or puppet for him though ... a relatively "pretty" face on the Nazi regime.
 
Documentary: Quest For The Atom: Project Osiris
Released March, 1973

Professor J.R. Oppenheimer: Of course Project Osiris made the bomb first, they took nearly every nuclear physicist in the world. They tried to get me to work with them in 1942, offered me 300,000 dollars a year if I'd be one of their top advisers. I refused believing that the S-1 Uranium Committee would gain faster results.
Unfortunately with the loss of scientists and researchers to Osiris and being unable to get much funds for pie in the sky research projects it all ground to a halt. I only found out in 1953 that the military had gotten copies of most of the Nazi nuclear research back in the dark days of 1941. When they read them over and saw how much uranium and plutonium the Germans believed they would need, they decided that it was an inexcusable waste of resources.
We kept working at it though. Struggling to for labs, money, and resources we so desperately needed. Finally just as the Commonwealth was finishing their project we caught a break with President Stevenson. In early 1955 we were given full funding.
That's why we could detonate the first American atomic bomb just five months after Project Osiris. With less scientists, less funding, and a lot less support we almost, almost beat them.
 
The Brown Scare- Senator Henry A. Wallace (D-IA) became infamous for his campaign to "root out the Nazi menace" in the 1940s and 1950s, saying, ""There is a long chain that links unknown young hoodlums in North Carolina or Alabama with men in finely tailored business suits in the great financial centers of New York or Boston, men who make a dollars-&-cents profit by setting race against race in the far away South." (1948). many thousands of Americans were accused of being fascists or fascist sympathizers and became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private-industry panels, committees and agencies. Many companies and organizations such as the "Cleveland Browns" (e.g. "Cleveland Panthers") changed their names rather than face accusations of fascist sympathies. The primary targets of such suspicions conservative government employees, religious clerics, military officials, and corporate leaders. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was often greatly exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment, destruction of their careers, and even imprisonment. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts later overturned. But leaders such as Walt Disney, Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh, et al., had their careeers destroyed when brought before the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) until the sudden death of Senate leader Henry A, Wallace on May 2nd, 1957...
 
You people are forgetting that after his retreat from office Hitler wanted the position of Fuehrer abolished, and the return to a system of president and chancellor.
 

Eurofed

Banned
OOC: While I think this is overall fine thread I commend, there are a couple of aspects that I feel the need to criticize:

First, the urge to mollify wounded British nationalistic pride has been channeled into an unhealthy amount of Commonwealth wank: come on folks, there are narrow hard limits to the amount of people the British would be able to evacuate to the Dominions in the imminence of defeat, and they cannot in any way allow to turn the latter in some weird "substitute Britain". It would not absolutely have the resources to suppress the Indian national movement by force, nor to develop the nukes first.

Second, and even more so since the British folk have been written to be so defiant to Nazi victory, it does not absolutely feel right that France would be the most restive/defiant country to Nazi rule, the ATL equivalent of Poland. Vichy France had a very solid popular following all the way to 1943-44, and fascism was always much more popular in France than in Britain before the war. If anything, I would edit things so that France is the almost thoroughly Germanized place that is turning out folks like our Johannes, and Britain is the one where the ATL-Solidarity insurrection takes place.

A suggestion: since this Germany is pushing so much effort into eugenetics, with none of the OTL ethical constraints, IMO it would be wholly plausible that it has advanced in biology and genetics beyond OTL levels to a degree comparable to space exploration.
 
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OOC: While I think this is overall fine thread I commend, there are a couple of aspects that I feel the need to criticize:

First, the urge to mollify wounded British nationalistic pride has been channeled into an unhealthy amount of Canada/Commonwealth wank: come on folks, there are narrow hard limits to the amount of people that the British would be able to evacuate to Canada/Commonwealth in the imminence of defeat, and they cannot in any way allow to turn the latter in some weird "substitute Britain". It would not absolutely have the resources to suppress the Indian national movement by force, nor to develop the nukes first.

Second, and even more so since the British folk have been written to be so defiant to Nazi victory, it does not absolutely feel right that France would be the most restive/defiant country to Nazi rule, the ATL equivalent of Poland. Vichy France had a very solid popular following all the way to 1943-44, and fascism was always much more popular in France than in Britain before the war. If anything, I would edit things so that France is the almost thoroughly Germanized place that is turning out folks like our Johannes, and Birtain is the one where the ATL-Solidarity insurrection takes place.


I wrote on the assumption (or guess) that the Nazis would make a much greater effort to Germanize Britain because of supposed "racial" similarities, while France would be treated more as a conquered power. I also had in mind strenuous Nazi efforts to Germanize Holland and the Scandinavian countries. Depending on how successful these efforts were over time (and with the Nazis holding power for decades, they could easily rewrite history and brainwash young generations), there would be more "German" control over Britain and the other "Aryan" states, because a large part of their populations would be co-opted.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I wrote on the assumption (or guess) that the Nazis would make a much greater effort to Germanize Britain because of supposed "racial" similarities, while France would be treated more as a conquered power. I also had in mind strenuous Nazi efforts to Germanize Holland and the Scandinavian countries. Depending on how successful these efforts were over time (and with the Nazis holding power for decades, they could easily rewrite history and brainwash young generations), there would be more "German" control over Britain and the other "Aryan" states, because a large part of their populations would be co-opted.

Hmm, I am not convinced. From Nazi racist theories' PoV, France, Italy, Spain, and Britain were more or less the same, "Aryan" second-best Celtic or Italic stock which had got an infusion of top-best Germanic blood, not pure Germanics like the Dutch and the Scandinavians. France had quickly switched from hostile conquered nation to fairly cooperative fascist vassal in 1940, in all evidence with a Nazi victory Vichy France would have gone on in eager competition with fascist Italy to be the preferred-vassal second-in-command for the Nazi Empire. Now, it is wholly possible (and actually I rather expect it) that in the wake of total defeat Britain could have taken a Vichy (or at least a Finland) political course. Given that this thread has chosen the (not so likely and boring clichè) course of making Churchillian empty boasts about stubborn British defiance as alt-historical fact, it follows that Britain gets treated like the abused pain-in-the-butt defiant conquered country and France like the pampered valuable cooperative vassal.

Now, I surely expect that they would sooner or later simply annex purely-Germanic areas (Flanders, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, most of Switzerland) in the Reich, or at least bind them in very tight association, and that they would make strong efforts to awaken "racial German" loyalties in other second-best Aryan areas like Britain, France, Spain, and Italy, and work to make the political and cultural ties between Germany and the rest of their "Aryan" European Empire stronger and stronger over the decades, welcoming suitable "elective Germans" and the like (this builds up on how the SS recruited all over Western Europe during the war).

It seems however strange and unrealistic that they would do more of this effort, and meet more success, in a defiant conquered country than in ones that always were valuable vassals, or very quickly switched to that position. Again, it would have been different if Britain had gone Vichy. Since this thread instead opted to follow the Churchillian cliche, I expect folks like Johannes to be more often French or Italian instead of British, and alt-Solidarity movements to surface in Britain rather than France. Of course, we can still go along with our Johannes being British, several enthusiastic collaborationists that fully internalize Nazi ideology and self-identification are going to turn out even in nations that were defiant to the Nazi to the bitter end. However, I would really rewrite the anti-Nazi Solidarity-like uprising to occur in Britain, not France. If this TL is going to wank Churchillian cliches so much, at least do it the coherent way.

Oh, and remind: until about 1943-44, the Vichy regime held the loyalty of the vast majority of the French in the mainland and most of the colonies, Free France was the concern of a fringe and the interior Resistance even more so. All the way to late 1942-early 1943, Britain and America were giving serious thought to treat France, if and when they had occupied it, just as another Axis power like Germany and Italy. Had Nazis won the war, in all evidence this would have worked on the French collective psuche just like OTL WWII did for the German one, about settling the Franco-German feud for good.
 
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OOC: Some good points, but a little inaccurate. For the Commonwealth the only wanking they seem to have is some nukes :eek:. For the most part we have just made the Commonwealth noisy, not all powerful. The Germans and Americans control space, and Germany seems to be doing a pretty fair job of dominating Eastern Europe, and having a hand in Western Europe and Africa.

IC:
Top Secret
July 1, 1954
To: SS-General Mengele
RE: Operation Unreinheit

Operations continue as planned in former Russian and Eastern Europe revolutionary zones.
Infected prisoners allowed to escaped have spread throughout the areas. Quarantine lines have been formed using convict soldiers. Vaccinated soldiers continue to patrol surrounding areas for infections.
Estimated death rate 75% as expected.
Will continue to monitor the situation.
 
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Deleted member 5719

It seems however strange and unrealistic that they would do more of this effort, and meet more success, in a defiant conquered country than in ones that always were valuable vassals, or very quickly switched to that position. Again, it would have been different if Britain had gone Vichy. Since this thread instead opted to follow the Churchillian cliche, I expect folks like Johannes to be more often French or Italian instead of British, and alt-Solidarity movements to surface in Britain rather than France. Of course, we can still go along with our Johannes being British, several enthusiastic collaborationists that fully internalized Nazi ideology and self-identification are going to turn out even in nations that were defiant to the Nazi to the bitter end. However, I would really rewrite the anti-Nazi Solidarity-like uprising to occur in Britain, not France. If this TL is going to wank Churchillian cliches so much, at least do it the coherent way.

Oh, and remind: until about 1943-44, the Vichy regime held the loyalty of the vast majority of the French in the mainland and most of the colonies, Free France was the concern of a fringe and the interior Resistance even more so. All the way to late 1942-early 1943, Britain and America were giving serious thought to treat France, if and when they had occupied it, just as another Axis power like Germany and Italy. Had Nazis won the war, in all evidence this would have worked on the French collective psuche just like OTL WWII did for the German one, about settling the Franco-German feud for good.

The POD here is actually in 1933, with FDR's murder, so a lot of OTL situations never happened. However, I think we can consider TTL France (up to '75) as a racial-fascist lite state with no control of its foreign policy or defence. This would be exactly the kind of place where a solidarity style putsch could work... for a while

As to the UK, we don't actually know that much about it! We know it's in association with the reich, and that THE CANADIANS consider it occupied...nor do we know what went on in India.

If you want to turn the timeline in another direction, add your own post and skew it.

**** realised re-reading that errors are typos not second language errors, apologies if I sounded patronising****
 
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From The Irish Times, 30 January 1972

EIRE REUNITED

German troops flee Northern Ireland en masse.

Taoiseach proclaims today a national holiday in Ireland. Promises to protect Protestant population.
 

Deleted member 5719

From The Irish Times, 30 January 1972

EIRE REUNITED

German troops flee Northern Ireland en masse.

Taoiseach proclaims today a national holiday in Ireland. Promises to protect Protestant population.

OOC...Was going to call bullshit, but could this be part of the Nazi Cultural revolution, a Nazi civil war?
 
From The Irish Times, 14 October, 1972

Eire Joins European Alliance

After a series of high level negotiations, Eerie has agreed to join the European Alliance, as a High Council Member.
...
The other E.A. members led by British President John Tyndall warmly welcomed their newest member.



OOC: Germany would be willing to trade other peoples land for alliances.
 
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Deleted member 5719

From The Red Road to Europe by Delanore Theroux (New york, 1977)


My stay at the Vladivostok Seamen's Mission had been indefinitely prolonged while I waited for Sergeant Jeavons, the Singaporean fixer, to "facilitate" my papers for travel to the Soviet Republic. It was there that I met my first ever real, live, honest-to-goodness, Jap.

The disconcertingly well-dressed Jap was the custodian of the mission, and while polite enough to me, he dedicated himself to the protection of the reception desk with the determination and ruthlessness for which his race is famous. Perhaps out of boredom, perhaps out of curiosity at this strange-eyed alien, and perhaps, I now see, out of pity; I decided that I would make it my business to befriend him.

My initial attempts at chit-chat met with professional disdain, but I resolved to persist. For what seemed a reasonable fee, Sergeant Jeavons "facilitated" me a bottle of good Canadian whiskey, so one Saturday evening I approached the reception desk with a pair of tin-cups and an idiot grin.

Whiskey obviously works some fortunate alchemy on the Jap physiology, because the stern, duty-bound guardian became my old pal Akira, the priceless, laugh a minute, life of the party. We communicated in a mixture of Chink, Russkie and China Pidgin, making up our own ethanol-based grammar as we went along.

Akira, a worn but handsome man of about 60, claimed he had spent years making educational films for the Jap army. I was inclined to believe him after he performed a quite amusing skit based on a short he'd directed outlining the dangers inherent to the Indochinese vagina.

We talked about American films, particularly Westerns, and he spoke passionately about the cinematography of John Ford and Bela Lugosi. When I mentioned Hitchcock he went into raptures of Japanese, and it was difficult to drag him back to our tenuous boozy zone of mutual comprehension.

All the while we talked too loudly, like drunken lonely men do everywhere, the same thought kept returning unbidden to my mind.

I'm here talking to a Jap, but we are just two men talking. It doesn't matter, the past, the war, politics.

Of course, I was young, I was foolish and I was wrong.

I asked him why he hadn't gone back in '64, he looked me in the eyes and said the only three words of English I ever heard from him.

"Enora Gay. Rocket." He looked down into his tin cup and spoke again. "Kyoto."

And that was the end of that.
 
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Soviet soldier I believe
You were my savior in my time of need.
Blinded by ideology I couldn't hear
All the whispers, the warnings so clear.
You saw them as nothing,
IThey kicked down your door.
There's no escape now,
No mercy no more.

You showed me dreams,
I wished they'd turn into real.
You made me realize.
It was all just a lie.

Fallen soldier, tell me why?
What is the reason, the thorn in your eye?
You took my dreams,
Deceived me right from the start.
Could have been forever.
Now we have reached the end.

This world may have failed you,
It doesn't give you reason why.
You could have chosen a different path in life.


Alice Walker, 1976
 
The March on Washington (July 1st, 1941)- In 1941 Philip Randolph and Baynard Rustin began to organize a march to Washington to protest against discrimination in the defense industries. In May Randolph issued a "Call to Negro America to March on Washington for Jobs and Equal Participation in National Defense on July, 1, 1941". By June estimates of the number of people expecting to participate reached 100,000. President Charles Lindbergh (R) attempted to persuade Randolph and Rustin call off the demonstration, calling it "possibly seditious...". On July 1st, 1941, c.250,000 protesters gathered on the Washington Mall to hear A. Philip Randolph speak, saying:

Dear fellow Negro Americans, be not dismayed by these terrible times. You possess power, great power. Our problem is to harness and hitch it up for action on the broadest, daring and most gigantic scale.

In this period of power politics, nothing counts but pressure, more pressure, and still more pressure, through the tactic and strategy of broad, organized, aggressive mass action behind the vital and important issues of the Negro.

We believe in national unity which recognizes equal opportunity of black and white citizens to jobs in national defense and the armed forces, and in all other institutions and endeavors in America. We condemn all dictatorships, Fascist, Nazi and Communist. We are loyal, patriotic Americans all.
But if American democracy will not defend its defenders; if American democracy will not protect its protectors; if American democracy will not give jobs to its toilers because of race or color; if American democracy will not insure equality of opportunity, freedom and justice to its citizens, black and white, it is a hollow mockery and belies the principles for which it is supposed to stand. . . .

Today we call on President Lindbergh, a great humanitarian and idealist, to free American Negro citizens of the stigma, humiliation and insult of discrimination and Jim- Crowism in Government departments and national defense.

The Federal Government cannot with clear conscience call upon private industry and labor unions to abolish discrimination based on race and color as long as it practices discrimination itself against Negro Americans...
 
Commanding Office of the SS, Provinz of Britannien

Evaluation of Standartenfuhrer Johannes Becker

Operation "Homecoming"

11 September 1985


To: Oberstgruppenfuhrer Reinhardt, Central SS Headquarters, Berlin, Greater German Reich​

From: Obergruppenfuhrer Kessler, SS Office, London, Province of Britain, Greater German Reich​


Per the instructions received regarding Operation "Homecoming" and its aim of demonstrating the loyalty of Standartenfuhrer Johannes Becker: on 4 September, 1985, Standartenfuhrer Becker was given command of a detachment of Gestapo agents and SS guards and was informed that he was to round up an anti-social family for transport to the psychiatric reconditioning hospital located in Reading. It was not until he reported to the hospital that he was given the exact name and address of the anti-social elements to be apprehended. They were James and Martha Baker, currently residing in Caversham, a suburb of Reading.​

As you will be aware, these are Standartenfuhrer Becker's birth parents. Per instructions, they had been essentially left alone for the years of Standartenfuhrer Becker's education and socialization in the Fatherland. However, the time for benign neglect had passed. It fell to Standartenfuhrer Becker to read and sign the order of involuntary commitment to his birth parents and to take them into custody. These tasks he carried out with great professionalism. Despite the stormy protests of both birth parents, the Standartenfuhrer would only assure them of the Reich's concern for their socialization, and the necessity of the actions he was taking that day.​

Herr and Frau Baker are now receiving appropriate treatment for their irrational, anti-National Socialist delusions. It is to be hoped that the end result, after the appropriate use of medicine, electroshock and aversion therapy, will be two people who are solid citizens of our Reich, supportive of their son's actions and above all of our Fuhrer's designs for the ever increasing unity between the Fatherland and its wayward province of Britain.​

Of course, should treatment not succeed in the allotted amount of time, resort will be made to a Reichs Mercy Clinic, one of which is most fortunately located in the city of Reading itself. Standartenfuhrer Becker understands this possible end result of treatment.​

Throughout this operation and its aftermath, Standartenfuhrer Becker (covertly observed by Hauptsturmfuhrer Gerhardt, who was however disguised as an ordinary SS guard) never wavered in his duty. He did not show the slightest sign of regret for his actions/ He did not fall victim to the unfortunate symptoms of sentimental humanism that, regrettably, even some members of the Wehrmacht and SS and occupation police fall into. He also showed the highest professionalism, avoiding any unnecessary force or harshness. He was firm but not brutal.​

It is my opinion that Standartenfuhrer Becker has proven his loyalty to Fuhrer and Reich beyond any doubt. I recommend he be officially commended for his actions and be considered for promotion with greater responsibilities for pacification and Germanisation of the indigenous population.

And, given Becker's tremendous admiration for our Fuhrer, something he has expressed now for many years, may I be so bold as to suggest a personal audience with the Fuhrer where he could receive the Fuhrer's personal congratulations? Perhaps this could be arranged the next time Standartenfuhrer Becker is in Berlin?​

Heil Hitler!​

/s/ Kessler, Obergruppenfuhrer​
 
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My Brother Joe: A Personal Biography
By Edward M. Kennedy

Excerpt:

Poppa always wanted Joe to be President, let me get that out of the way before anything else. I'd dare say Pop wanted himself to be President, but that never came. It must be understood that there was a defiant need in our family back then to show up a Protestant hegemony that excluded and looked down on us for our religion and ancestry, and poppa thought big.

Joe was everyone's favorite; I and Jack and Bob, and father's and and mother's as well (though they didn't say that out loud). Joe was handsome and smart, and kept a warmth about him that drew you in. And I think father lived through him his dreams and potention for the family, with Joe as the pretty face for the sale's pitch to the public.

Following his service in the Pacific, father saw fit to get him some political experience. Joe got a seat in the House of Representatives in 1945 to 53. Joe followed up on this with his gubernatorial run in 1953. As always, Joe's charm and charisma got to everyone, and he was swept into office (and might I add, with a plurality of the female vote). If I recall, I seldom saw poppa happier than when the results were finally announced...

... During my brother's governorship, he managed to build a coalition which would serve Joe and our family's politics well in the decades to come. Joe managed to capture the support of labor, Irish-Catholics, a good deal of the upper class, blue collar voters, and minorities to whom he granted a slight amount of support, though in that day whatever benefit there was was rather important to people of color...

...I recall when Joe told us he was going to run for the White House in 1960. Father was gone for most of the day on some business, and Joe paced around the compound silent and lost in thought. When father arrived home and we ate that night, Joe announced the news to the family. The men were happy at the notion, though I think father was far more exuberant than anyone. Mother looked on silently with a nervous and fabricated grin. I saw that same looked reflected on Joe's face for a split second as father looked away. I'll believe to my dying day that Joe did this for poppa more than himself. That isn't to say that Joe wouldn't have liked the opportunity if he achieved it, but that Joe was at least somewhat leery at the prospect of having that great a responsibility...

***
New York Times, November, 1958:
Kennedy Challenges Johnson

To Succeed Adlai

 
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This is a book review taken from the American magazine "Newsweek"

Book: The Man With The Iron Heart (2000)
The thrilling new stand-alone alternate history from "New York Times"-bestselling author Turtledove is his most controversial epic to date.

"What if the Greater German Reich lost the Second World War?" was the question posed by this book. What would the short term repercussions of such an outcome? These two questions were answered by the fast paced action that unfolds in this book.

In this imagined world, Nazi forces, under the command of Reinhard Heydrich, resort to unconventional warfare, using the quick and dirty tactics of terrorism-booby traps, time bombs, mortar and rocket strikes in the night, assassinations, even kamikaze-style suicide attacks-to overturn what seemed to be a decisive Allied victory. In November 1945, a truck bomb blows up the Nuremberg Palace of Justice, where high-ranking Nazi officials are about to stand trial for war crimes. None of the accused are there when the bomb goes off, but their judges, all of them present and accounted for, are annihilated. Worse acts of terrorism follow all over Europe.

Suddenly the Allies-especially the United States-must battle an invisible enemy and sacrifice countless lives in a long, seemingly pointless, unwinnable conflict. On the home front, patriotism corrodes, political fortunes are made and lost in the face of an antiwar backlash, and a once-proud country wonders how therighteous fight for freedom overseas has collapsed into a hopeless quagmire. At once a novel of thrilling military suspense, intriguing alternate history, and profound insight into contemporary affairs, The Man with the Iron Heart is a tour de force by a storyteller of exceptional imaginative power...
 
Madagascar, meet Israel by John Liebert
Introduction
The United States media has a tendency towards glossing over the violent and brutal actions of our allies, whether to the left or the right, and this has been reflected in the treatment of Israel-Madagascar. Do not confuse this book for a book which buys into such myths: this is a book which speaks frankly about the divide-and-rule tactics used by the Nazis, Capon, and the subsequent Republics. Indeed, the use of ethnic conflict between native africans has proven absolutely vital to the continuation of the state of Israel as it currently exists.

While some in the western left point towards early Israel - known then as the Republic of Israel-Madagascar - as an upstanding ethnic mix that only fell into its later actions following the 1968 elections and the second Republic, this is simply not true. Even the Republic of Israel-Madagascar engaged in this sort of tactic, manipulating the Malagasy, Merina and Betsileo against each other.

One particular way this can be noted is in the way that Israel-Madagascar treated interethnic violence between native africans (flimsily and with a slack wrist), and the way it treated native africans attacking jewish citizens (with often military levels of force). Another is the imprisonment rates for various ethnic groups, and another is in the political leadership and dialogue of Israel-Madagascar.

This endemic racism of Israeli society reflects the way an oppressed minority, given power, can all too quickly turn around and begin oppressing others.
 
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