Bismarck sinks the HMS Prince of Wales: ramifications in Asia?

Each ship transferred means fewer targets in the harbor, which also can mean more attention paid to each one. Butterfly effect will be flapping. Assuming that the Pearl Harbor attack happens successfully, the assortment of ships there will be quite different, and may include carriers.

Ouch, fair enough. Though it may also mean that the radar isn't ignored/misinterpreted. Presuming our battle happens before Pearl, the Pacific Fleet has no excuse to not be on a war footing.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Ouch, fair enough. Though it may also mean that the radar isn't ignored/misinterpreted. Presuming our battle happens before Pearl, the Pacific Fleet has no excuse to not be on a war footing.

This likely also puts the Philippines on a higher alrert status as well. Though with Dugout Doug there, who knows.

As for when this hypothetical battle takes place, probably around late summer, early fall. Just long enough for Tirpitz to work up and Bismark to be repaired.

Did some research as well, the Farragut-class destroyers mounted 8x21" torpedo tubes all on the centerline. So you could actually double the number of fish being sent at B&T over what I said. As for the type of torpedo, this was right around the time the USN was converting to the Mk15 from the Mk8. So it depends on when the Atlantic Fleet got their new fish
 
This likely also puts the Philippines on a higher alrert status as well. Though with Dugout Doug there, who knows.

As for when this hypothetical battle takes place, probably around late summer, early fall. Just long enough for Tirpitz to work up and Bismark to be repaired.

Did some research as well, the Farragut-class destroyers mounted 8x21" torpedo tubes all on the centerline. So you could actually double the number of fish being sent at B&T over what I said. As for the type of torpedo, this was right around the time the USN was converting to the Mk15 from the Mk8. So it depends on when the Atlantic Fleet got their new fish

A quick look at operational tables says that all of the Farraguts were in the Pacific. They received their MK-15s in 1938.

The Clemsons, which I see as the other option for convoy duty retained their MK-8s.
 

SsgtC

Banned
A quick look at operational tables says that all of the Farraguts were in the Pacific. They received their MK-15s in 1938.

The Clemsons, which I see as the other option for convoy duty retained their MK-8s.

Ok. Honest question. Would the USN have ever considered transferring the Farraguts to the Atlantic? After looking at the range numbers, I'm skeptical since they have over 1,000 miles more range than the Clemsons. Something that will be essential in the Pacific
 
Ouch, fair enough. Though it may also mean that the radar isn't ignored/misinterpreted. Presuming our battle happens before Pearl, the Pacific Fleet has no excuse to not be on a war footing.

The Atlantic was essentially on a war footing in OTL. Sure, there might be more preparations, but Germany simply can't project a major force to the Pacific, so there's no German air raids or battle squadrons to worry about. Ironically, if things happen as in OTL, Ward's submarine is treated seriously, since a U-Boat would be possible. (Might Japan clandestinely resupply U-Boats in this time?

This likely also puts the Philippines on a higher alrert status as well. Though with Dugout Doug there, who knows.

As for when this hypothetical battle takes place, probably around late summer, early fall. Just long enough for Tirpitz to work up and Bismark to be repaired. Dugout Doug--well, he left his planes on the ground after Pearl was attacked. Higher alert might interfere with a press release.

Did some research as well, the Farragut-class destroyers mounted 8x21" torpedo tubes all on the centerline. So you could actually double the number of fish being sent at B&T over what I said. As for the type of torpedo, this was right around the time the USN was converting to the Mk15 from the Mk8. So it depends on when the Atlantic Fleet got their new fish

I can't recall if the 4 pipers could take the longer fish. I know that the S-boats fought with older torpedoes, and as a result, they worked.

A quick look at operational tables says that all of the Farraguts were in the Pacific. They received their MK-15s in 1938.

The Clemsons, which I see as the other option for convoy duty retained their MK-8s.

If newer fish FIT, they might get a higher priority for them than they did in OTL.

Ok. Honest question. Would the USN have ever considered transferring the Farraguts to the Atlantic? After looking at the range numbers, I'm skeptical since they have over 1,000 miles more range than the Clemsons. Something that will be essential in the Pacific

Longer range likely means the Farragut class stays in the Pacific; it's too important.
 

jbavarian

Banned
first off, first post, i'm a teenager without much research experience but i'll do my best, so don't bite my head off

now, for Ramifications of Just Bismarck wreaking that fleet, we could see Hitler focus Much more on the Navy because of the fact Bismarck has just proven it's superior. what this might mean is, no immediate consequence, but a change on how the Navy runs the war and their support. Graf Zepplein might be finished as well, so even more to worry about for the british

as for the NYs vs. B/T, i liked the assessment off the battle, and I'll need to look at it, i think you might be Forgetting Bismarks Secondary armament. 12 15cm guns aren't just doing nothing, and even with the advanced america torpedoes LATE in the war, destroyers had to get to a close range to fire. the 5in/38cal guns on the Fletchers, Allen M. Summers, and capital ships had a range of 10 miles. the 38 cal from late war, they Out-ranged the late war US torpedoes. the 6 in guns and even the 105mm guns will be firing on the destroyers LONG before the get to firing range. also, with Torpedo wandering, them hitting their target is unlikely, plus warhead detonation as before. add to the fact that the only way to take these monsters out of action is Hundreds of Heavy shells or equivalent and a wreaked steering system and the allies have a hard time. not sure the difference in explosive power from Swordfish torpedoes and MK8s, but something to note. also, PE and AH have torpedoes of their own.

maybe all addressed and I'm oblivious, but still putting that out there. Germany's ships(at least of Admiral Hipper/Bismark classes) are very tough ships, so we may see even with american superiority in numbers inferiority in battle. also depends on the commanders of the 2 groups.

as for the Reprecussions of the event, Roosevelt now has his casus belli and can now go to war. the Atlantic fleet carriers are now in the fight and some more assets could also be moved from Pearl to the East and the Eighth Airforce is sent over earlier. which means if the American Flattops and modern battleships are constantly hunting and containing the German surface fleet, Japan gets an easier starting time in the Pacific when war breaks out. while fighting might be fiercer, all assets are for Europe and Capitals ships, especially Carriers, won't be done for quite a While.

as stated, in the end, the Axis still lose, but is messier and harder. and that's without even touching the soviets
 
The Atlantic was essentially on a war footing in OTL. Sure, there might be more preparations, but Germany simply can't project a major force to the Pacific, so there's no German air raids or battle squadrons to worry about. Ironically, if things happen as in OTL, Ward's submarine is treated seriously, since a U-Boat would be possible. (Might Japan clandestinely resupply U-Boats in this time?

The expectation is not that Germans will attack Pearl; However, if they get caught flat-footed when there is a war on, I suspect there isn't a high enough tree to hang the commanding Admiral from.

I can't recall if the 4 pipers could take the longer fish. I know that the S-boats fought with older torpedoes, and as a result, they worked.

As far as I know, the four pipers never received the newer fish. The small warhead of the MK-8s is only a little bigger than the Swordfish's aerial torpedo, and is unlikely to impress the defences of the Bismarck, discounting rudder and screw hits.

as for the Reprecussions of the event, Roosevelt now has his casus belli and can now go to war. the Atlantic fleet carriers are now in the fight and some more assets could also be moved from Pearl to the East and the Eighth Airforce is sent over earlier. which means if the American Flattops and modern battleships are constantly hunting and containing the German surface fleet, Japan gets an easier starting time in the Pacific when war breaks out. while fighting might be fiercer, all assets are for Europe and Capitals ships, especially Carriers, won't be done for quite a While.

A good post. The German surface fleet is likely to be trapped in their fjord. Maybe they issue forth for attacks on northbound convoys, like PQ17, but there will be a lot of battleships waiting to pounce. Per Graf Zeppelin: It is important to note that HAVING a carrier, and knowing how to USE your carrier are two very different things. Japan, the US, and the UK had all been developing carrier doctrine for two decades.
 

jbavarian

Banned
and yes, i know that. very clearly. but even if not used, having that carrier is another for the allies to worry about. THEY know how powerful carriers are, and the fact that Germany HAS one is terrifying. they will be SO overreacting to a massive carrier that can also participate in surface battles(at least that was the original idea), the 2 most advanced and powerful battleships in the world, and a collection of additional capital ships ALL in Germany's hands. whether or not used effectively, it's still a terror weapon. other than that i agree.
 

SsgtC

Banned
and yes, i know that. very clearly. but even if not used, having that carrier is another for the allies to worry about. THEY know how powerful carriers are, and the fact that Germany HAS one is terrifying. they will be SO overreacting to a massive carrier that can also participate in surface battles(at least that was the original idea), the 2 most advanced and powerful battleships in the world, and a collection of additional capital ships ALL in Germany's hands. whether or not used effectively, it's still a terror weapon. other than that i agree.

Actually, no they won't be massively overreacting. Even IF Graf Zeppelin gets commissioned, that gives Germany ONE carrier. And it's not even that powerful. Combined, the US and UK have something like 16 flight decks. And US decks can have TWICE the number of aircraft that GZ can. This isn't some terrifying wunderwaffe that will turn the USN and RN to jelly. Not to mention the fact that, again, the Germans have NO experience operating aircraft at sea, have NO carrier capable aircraft and have NO deck qualified pilots or even a means to train them.

Also, by this time, a bit of reason will have sunk in. B&T would have taken out basically 3 antiques (Hood, NY and TX) and one modern ship that was rushed into service and wasn't combat ready. Against true front line forces, they don't stack up very well.
 
and yes, i know that. very clearly. but even if not used, having that carrier is another for the allies to worry about. THEY know how powerful carriers are, and the fact that Germany HAS one is terrifying. they will be SO overreacting to a massive carrier that can also participate in surface battles(at least that was the original idea), the 2 most advanced and powerful battleships in the world, and a collection of additional capital ships ALL in Germany's hands. whether or not used effectively, it's still a terror weapon. other than that i agree.

Important to note that the US carrier planes at least have significantly better combat radii than does any German plane. Example:

BF-109 (This was going to be navalized; consider, then shudder) - range: About 530 nm
F4f - range: About 830 nm

JU-87 Stuka - Range: 300 nm
SBD Dauntless: Range: 1100 nm

FI-167 (Presuming it actually enters production) - Range: About 700 nm
TBF Avenger - range: about 1000 nm.

Now, compared to USS Ranger, which spent much of her time in the Atlantic:

USS Ranger: 76 aircraft carried a mix of F4F, and Dauntless
Graf Zeppelin: Planned complement of 43 (Originally planned to be 10 BF-109, 13 JU-87, 20 FI-167; Later planned to be 13 BF-109, and 30 JU-87)

Not meaning to be confrontational, but I'm with Ssgtc; one carrier, that is only a little better than the Independence-class light carriers is unlikely to impress the Allied fleets. Like the other German warships, it seems to have been built around commerce raiding, and I suspect she'd have done very poorly in a battle. Not least because her aircraft are severely outranged. Also, due to the very narrow gear, the BF-109 was a beast to land on terra firma, I can't imagine doing so on a carrier deck.
 
now, for Ramifications of Just Bismarck wreaking that fleet, we could see Hitler focus Much more on the Navy because of the fact Bismarck has just proven it's superior. what this might mean is, no immediate consequence, but a change on how the Navy runs the war and their support. Graf Zepplein might be finished as well, so even more to worry about for the british

I don't see how it would change how the RN ran it's war, they would step up their efforts to sink the German capital ships. Graf Zeppelin was not finished because her guns and fire control systems were needed elsewhere such as Norway, so she would not get finished regardless.

as for the NYs vs. B/T, i liked the assessment off the battle, and I'll need to look at it, i think you might be Forgetting Bismarks Secondary armament. 12 15cm guns aren't just doing nothing, and even with the advanced america torpedoes LATE in the war, destroyers had to get to a close range to fire. the 5in/38cal guns on the Fletchers, Allen M. Summers, and capital ships had a range of 10 miles. the 38 cal from late war, they Out-ranged the late war US torpedoes. the 6 in guns and even the 105mm guns will be firing on the destroyers LONG before the get to firing range. also, with Torpedo wandering, them hitting their target is unlikely, plus warhead detonation as before. add to the fact that the only way to take these monsters out of action is Hundreds of Heavy shells or equivalent and a wreaked steering system and the allies have a hard time. not sure the difference in explosive power from Swordfish torpedoes and MK8s, but something to note. also, PE and AH have torpedoes of their own.

The NY class battleships are completely outclassed against the Bismarck class, which is obvious due to the fact they were WWI era ships. That being said, all it takes is one shot to change the tide of the battle. Secondary batteries are notoriously inaccurate especially in the rough weather of the Atlantic, so I'd largely rule them out at anything besides close range. These ships could have had their combat ability knocked out relatively quickly in a stand up battle due to their older distributed armor scheme and wonky turret armor/vital components over the citadel. USS Ranger with divebombers or a RN CV attack in multiple waves could sink or slow a German ship enough.

maybe all addressed and I'm oblivious, but still putting that out there. Germany's ships(at least of Admiral Hipper/Bismark classes) are very tough ships, so we may see even with american superiority in numbers inferiority in battle. also depends on the commanders of the 2 groups.

The Admiral Hipper class was a poor CA design. While she had impressive subdivision, her armor was thin, she was very overweight, her stern was weakly constructed and she only carried dual turrets. Bismarck only survived as long as she did because her armor was put in the exact situation it was designed for, keeping her citadel protected in close combat, too bad she was completely combat ineffective.

as for the Reprecussions of the event, Roosevelt now has his casus belli and can now go to war. the Atlantic fleet carriers are now in the fight and some more assets could also be moved from Pearl to the East and the Eighth Airforce is sent over earlier. which means if the American Flattops and modern battleships are constantly hunting and containing the German surface fleet, Japan gets an easier starting time in the Pacific when war breaks out. while fighting might be fiercer, all assets are for Europe and Capitals ships, especially Carriers, won't be done for quite a While.

I highly doubt the USN would divert any large fleet to the Atlantic, Ranger and her surface force would be over there but that's about it. Anything there would likely be pulled to the Pacific after Pearl.
 
The British are going to develop a large armor percing bomb rapidly. As well as having submarines stake out the ports where German capital ships are.
If Reider losses the Bismarck to a submarine Donitz will never let him live it down.
But big butterfly construction on the Fredrick Der Gross will not be cancelled that's a lot of steel that won't be used to build other stuff.
The U-Boat fleet and the Panzer Divisions will feel that.
 
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I'd say that the odds of a fight between the Americans and Germans are low overall. The Germans are better off keeping their raiding in the eastern part of the Atlantic, where they are closer to home ports. I'd expect that the St. Nazaire raid could happen earlier, though, to try to put the Normandie dock out of service.

I would not call the Bismark class "The most advanced battleships," certainly the USA won't. When the North Carolinas are in service, I'd rate them as significantly better, and the South Dakotas, although they are a long way off, as ships that would probably eat Bismarks for lunch. (Indigestion comes afterwards, though...)
 

SsgtC

Banned
I'd say that the odds of a fight between the Americans and Germans are low overall. The Germans are better off keeping their raiding in the eastern part of the Atlantic, where they are closer to home ports. I'd expect that the St. Nazaire raid could happen earlier, though, to try to put the Normandie dock out of service.

I would not call the Bismark class "The most advanced battleships," certainly the USA won't. When the North Carolinas are in service, I'd rate them as significantly better, and the South Dakotas, although they are a long way off, as ships that would probably eat Bismarks for lunch. (Indigestion comes afterwards, though...)

Actually, by this point, the North Carolinas are in service. They've got some issues being worked out (vibration) but in a situation where Bismark or Tirpitz sinks an American battleship, the Navy most definitely sends them to hunt her down
 
Actually, by this point, the North Carolinas are in service. They've got some issues being worked out (vibration) but in a situation where Bismark or Tirpitz sinks an American battleship, the Navy most definitely sends them to hunt her down

Possibly. They are both still shaking down, and Bismarck did dreadful things to the last ship she caught that had her shakedown cut short.
 
In the event that an American battleship or cruiser is sunk, they'll send whatever available to try to catch the German ships. Once that chase is over, successful or not, I'd expect a couple of Colorados to be sent out from the Pacific. North Carolina's vibration problems were bad.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Important to note that the US carrier planes at least have significantly better combat radii than does any German plane. Example:

BF-109 (This was going to be navalized; consider, then shudder) - range: About 530 nm
F4f - range: About 830 nm

JU-87 Stuka - Range: 300 nm
SBD Dauntless: Range: 1100 nm

FI-167 (Presuming it actually enters production) - Range: About 700 nm
TBF Avenger - range: about 1000 nm.

Now, compared to USS Ranger, which spent much of her time in the Atlantic:

USS Ranger: 76 aircraft carried a mix of F4F, and Dauntless
Graf Zeppelin: Planned complement of 43 (Originally planned to be 10 BF-109, 13 JU-87, 20 FI-167; Later planned to be 13 BF-109, and 30 JU-87)

Not meaning to be confrontational, but I'm with Ssgtc; one carrier, that is only a little better than the Independence-class light carriers is unlikely to impress the Allied fleets. Like the other German warships, it seems to have been built around commerce raiding, and I suspect she'd have done very poorly in a battle. Not least because her aircraft are severely outranged. Also, due to the very narrow gear, the BF-109 was a beast to land on terra firma, I can't imagine doing so on a carrier deck.

I agree with all of the above, BUT...
Will the Allies know this?
If they do will they assume that Germany is currently developing carrier-borne aircraft with significant increases in performance?
Or will they credit Graf Zeppelin with the same mythical properties of the indestructible Bismarck?

Remember the Allies significantly overestimated the abilities of the "pocket battleships" and - to a degree - Bismarck & Tirpitz.
 
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