Bismarck planned to raise Hungarian troops if France intervenes in the Austro-Prussian War?

[Octosteel]

I'm currently reading Hans Trefousse's biography on Carl Schurz, the famous German-American writer and statesman. He notes that in Schurz's first visit with Bismarck, the Iron Chancellor really loosened up around the former '48 revolutionary and granted him an interview long past most interviews. During the interview (page 165 of the hardback version), Bismarck told Schurz:

Had France intervene [in the Austro-Prussian War], he said, he would have had to play his trump card, the raising of Hungarian troops, a course of action which would have made any reconciliation with the Habsburgs impossible.

This is the first time I've ever heard of this "trump card." Most of the alternate histories around France intervening seems to think Prussia would have to fight it alone. Does anyone know more about this idea of raising Hungarian troops? Was Bismarck planning to promise them independence? Would this be just about getting more manpower to join the Prussian army rather than an independent force? Would this have been effective at all?

I'm just imagining a scenario where Bismarck has to raise Hungarian troops and probably promise them freedom. If this gambit works and he manages to push Napoleon III and Franz Joseph back, what is the result in Europe? Is Hungary free and now an ally of Germany? Would the Habsburgs being reconcilable mean Bismarck would have to seek to conquer Austria and force it into the German Empire? Does anyone in general just have more details on this?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

@Fehérvári @Tibi088

 

[Nivek]

I'm currently reading Hans Trefousse's biography on Carl Schurz, the famous German-American writer and statesman. He notes that in Schurz's first visit with Bismarck, the Iron Chancellor really loosened up around the former '48 revolutionary and granted him an interview long past most interviews. During the interview (page 165 of the hardback version), Bismarck told Schurz:



This is the first time I've ever heard of this "trump card." Most of the alternate histories around France intervening seems to think Prussia would have to fight it alone. Does anyone know more about this idea of raising Hungarian troops? Was Bismarck planning to promise them independence? Would this be just about getting more manpower to join the Prussian army rather than an independent force? Would this have been effective at all?

I'm just imagining a scenario where Bismarck has to raise Hungarian troops and probably promise them freedom. If this gambit works and he manages to push Napoleon III and Franz Joseph back, what is the result in Europe? Is Hungary free and now an ally of Germany? Would the Habsburgs being reconcilable mean Bismarck would have to seek to conquer Austria and force it into the German Empire? Does anyone in general just have more details on this?

Yes alongside the secret treaty with Russia, Bismarck never started a war he wouldn't knew he would win it

 

[Octosteel]

Yes alongside the secret treaty with Russia, Bismarck never started a war he wouldn't knew he would win it

Oh did Russia agree to join the war if the French joined?

I guess I'm mainly just curious what the logistics of Hungarian troops look like and if that meant independence too. And how that changes the calculus. I know he wanted "Little Germany" but it seems part of not taking more from the Austrians was knowing that if knocked out of the German game, the Austrians would focus on the Balkans where German didn't have to compete. If Bismarck felt Austria was going to be a permanent enemy, that would join the calculus since he generally felt Germany had to ally with two out of three: France, Austria, and Russia. If Austria is out, that only leaves Russia and France.

 

[Tibi088]

Im lazy so I will simply copy the passage from the Wiki article on György Klapka, a general of the 1848-49 uprising and an exile later:
When the Austro-Prussian War from 1866 broke out, the Hungarian politicians and officers in exile agreed with the Minister President of Prussia Otto von Bismarck to form a Hungarian Legion, which had to fight against Austria, and start a national uprising in Hungary.[2] Once again Klapka was designated to organize a Hungarian corps in Silesia, and as major-general to lead it into Hungary.[2] He gathered 1,500 soldiers, but when, on 3 August 1866 he entered Hungary through the Jablonka Pass, the fate of the war was already decided, and the Austrians and the Prussians concluded an armistice, so he lost the Prussian support.[2] Klapka was informed about the armistice when he was preparing to cross the Jablonka pass into Hungary, and the Prussians asked him to retreat, and stop his military actions. Klapka refused this and entered in Hungary, advancing until Turzófalva, but the Slovak population which lived there did not wanted to join his troops.[6] Then Klapka's 1,500 soldiers were met by much superior Austrian troops, which forced him to retreat.[2] Klapka protested against this by retiring, and once again, the Hungarian Legion was disbanded

Link:

György Klapka - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ahmedali]

If this happens, the Habsburg empire will collapse

And not only support a Hungarian uprising, but will also consider Russian intervention on the side of the Prussians

(Alexander II loves the Prussians and Galicia is a good gain, which Bismarck promised him)

But it will not in any way mean the creation of Greater Germany

(Bismarck is still hostile to the Catholics and wants to exclude Austria, so we may see Austria remain a separate archduke outside Germany and the establishment of an independent Bohemian kingdom with an independent king and the same for Hungary and Croatia)

Italy will be more loyal to the Prussians if they win all their claims

(Except for Dalmatia, which the Croats may take in the independence deal or the Ottomans out of pure opportunism)

But this may mean the Italian joining the Prussians in the Franco-Prussian War and thus defeating France worse

 

[Octosteel]

Im lazy so I will simply copy the passage from the Wiki article on György Klapka, a general of the 1848-49 uprising and an exile later:
When the Austro-Prussian War from 1866 broke out, the Hungarian politicians and officers in exile agreed with the Minister President of Prussia Otto von Bismarck to form a Hungarian Legion, which had to fight against Austria, and start a national uprising in Hungary.[2] Once again Klapka was designated to organize a Hungarian corps in Silesia, and as major-general to lead it into Hungary.[2] He gathered 1,500 soldiers, but when, on 3 August 1866 he entered Hungary through the Jablonka Pass, the fate of the war was already decided, and the Austrians and the Prussians concluded an armistice, so he lost the Prussian support.[2] Klapka was informed about the armistice when he was preparing to cross the Jablonka pass into Hungary, and the Prussians asked him to retreat, and stop his military actions. Klapka refused this and entered in Hungary, advancing until Turzófalva, but the Slovak population which lived there did not wanted to join his troops.[6] Then Klapka's 1,500 soldiers were met by much superior Austrian troops, which forced him to retreat.[2] Klapka protested against this by retiring, and once again, the Hungarian Legion was disbanded

Link:

György Klapka - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Doesn't seem very substantial then, more like a Hail Mary sort of move. Although I suppose with direct Prussian support, maybe Klapka would gain more traction. But it still seems like he's one unlucky encounter with the Austrians for the whole thing to fall apart.

 

[Tibi088]

Doesn't seem very substantial then, more like a Hail Mary sort of move. Although I suppose with direct Prussian support, maybe Klapka would gain more traction. But it still seems like he's one unlucky encounter with the Austrians for the whole thing to fall apart.

Their hope was to spark a popular uprising. I think they were too late for that - both in the sense of the political climate of Hungary and in this war.

 

[ahmedali]

Their hope was to spark a popular uprising. I think they were too late for that - both in the sense of the political climate of Hungary and in this war.

The Compromise of 1867 has not yet occurred

Hungary is still under the military occupation of Austria, so the chances of a successful Hungarian revolution are very high (and this time the minorities will not trust the Habsburgs).

 

[Tibi088]

The Compromise of 1867 has not yet occurred

Hungary is still under the military occupation of Austria, so the chances of a successful Hungarian revolution are very high (and this time the minorities will not trust the Habsburgs).

The compromise did not happen yet but the talks have been ongoing for a while and the formulae which was later adopted has been ready by the outbreak of the austro-prussian war. In Hungary the political elit differed not in the question of the necessity of making a compromise with the austrians but on the details of that compromise - and this is what carried on to the dualist period. '48 was dead and buried. The exiles were completely out of touch with what went on at home. For example Kossuth's idea of the Danubian Confederation (which proposed a multinational confederation where the serbians and romanians would be an equal to the hungarians and croatians) prompted the sentiment at home that was best expresed "I would rather go to Vienna" - and at the end of the day, thats what they did.

 

[Fehérvári]

In Hungary the political elit differed not in the question of the necessity of making a compromise with the austrians but on the details of that compromise - and this is what carried on to the dualist period. '48 was dead and buried.

It was '49(independence and dethronement) that was dead and buried. If the Austrians are in a bad enough spot, then maybe the restoration of the state of affairs to '48's(personal union) could be doable.

Still FJ would need to be extremely desperate and the Hungarians very confident for such thing to happen.

 

[ahmedali]

It was '49(independence and dethronement) that was dead and buried. If the Austrians are in a bad enough spot, then maybe the restoration of the state of affairs to '48's(personal union) could be doable.

Still FJ would need to be extremely desperate and the Hungarians very confident for such thing to happen.

The Prussian army is on the doorstep of Vienna and the Russian army is attacking

Is there anything worse than this