Bismarck Escapes

loughery111

Banned
I'm still convinced however, that overall, in ship-to-ship encounters, only the Vanguard would have pulped a Bismarck.

This is the RN, right? Because I'm fairly confident an Iowa (shiny, radar-directed gunnery) could have reduced a Bismarck to scrap pretty quickly.
 
Nelson Class: Too slow to catch a Bismarck (unless the Bismarck's rudder is jammed:)), inferior main gun arrangements allowing one shell to potentially knock out all three turrets, but the only class of Royal Navy battleships to OUTGUN a Bismarck, which is why no German captain would face one if he could avoid it

King George V Class: Slightly slower than a Bismarck, more guns, but smaller guns (14") and less protection. Only the Rodney (according to the underwater photos) did truly crippling damage to the Bismarck.

Vanguard Class: One Bismarck for lunch:)

Actually any one of these classes would be able to take on the Bismarck fairly successfully. The KGV has a powerful 14in gun and ten of them on top of that. The main gun arrangement of the Nelsons is fine and no more vulnerable than any other arrangement - they do plan for such things.

The Vanguard if it succeeds would pretty much show that the QEs could have done the job also.
 
I get the feeling, as has already been posted, that every available resource would be used to turn Bismark into so many thousands of tons of scrap steel.
The RAF could field the Halifax, Wellington and potentially the Stirling as heavies, would be able to provide temporary fighter cover to get the bombers through.
The Royal Navy would throw every thing from battleships to stringbags at it, and you'd find SOE would be supplying the Marquis with everything you could as well. The Army would want in so commando raids as well.

There would be a point where the operation would go from being strategic to political, and the longer it goes on, the greater the risk to Churchill in terms of the cost and the consequences of failure.
 
German battleships all had to avoid any gunneryduel with no matter what kind of capital ship the British had, as the British could and would accept damage and even losses, as they already had more capital ships than the Germans, but the Germans could not do the same. A damaged German ship is more valuable to miss in the war, than a damaged British ship, simply because it would mean the German ship had to return to German controlled waters, in other words, get blockaded again in enclosed German waters, while the British always had the better geographical possition to continue their blockade of German waters, as their cocks and yards were better possitioned to take in damaged ships, than the German ones.

Pound for pound, the British capital ship could accept being pounded and take heavy damage, iff necessary, as her dockyards were closer to her own possition, than those of Germany, while even a slightly damaged German capital ship, would need to get back to a homeport, to fix it, as it could not longer do its bussiness at sea in the war.

In terms of quality, the German battleships of the Bismarck class and also the ones of the Scharnhorst class were all better constructed to survive damage than their British cousins, but not better armored, as the King George V and Nelson Classes both carrierd more and thicker armor, although on a smaller part of the vessel. (Belt of King Goerge V class was the thickest ever on any capital ship, except Yamato, being nearly 15 inches thick, while Nelson had one of 14 inch. Both had superior deckarmor compared to the German ships, which was maximum 120mm over the magazines in Bismarck and 100mm in Scharnhorst, while the wheatherdeck was some 45 to 50mm as well, with a splinterdeck of some 20 to 40mm below the main armroed deck. KGV had a single main armored deck of 152mm, plus a wheatherdeck of some 40mm, while Nelson even had one main deck of 170mm plus a wheatherdeck of also 40mm.

Bismarck and Scharnhorst were much wider in the beam and more intenally subdivided in watertight compartments, which showed her abbility to absorb very heavy damage, without the risk of sinking. Vital parts could be damaged though, but not by shellfire. Only torpedodamge could knock out such a ship, but only just that, while she would certainly remain afloat, due to her superior internal subdivission. (Not that it would be much different though, as an incapacitated ship is as dangereous as one sunken ship.)
 
One thing to point out: on combinedfleetcom, there's a history of the sub I-8 which mentions her meeting with U-180 (IO, Sep '42). Among the items transferred from the I-boat to the German was a set of plans for the carrier Akagi (just sunk at Midway). The Germans had asked for the plans to help with Graf Zeppelin's construction. If Bismarck does escape, and both Raeder and Lutjens insist on completing the carrier, the plans might be transferred much earlier (say, a diplomatic courier from Tokyo to Berlin via the Trans-Siberian RR prior to 22 June 41).
 
The Bismarck did have several flaws that British ships did not have. The Germans did not have the experience with the increase in damage control and redundancy in fire control systems that other navies introduced in the 20s and 30s.

Bismarck lost his (yes, the Bismarck was a he) fire control to glancing hits (Scharnhorst had the same problem, by the way) and could no longer effectively fight.

A single hit from Prince of Wales penetrated her bow and reduced her to 20 knots, leaking oil.

A single glancing torpedo hit reduced her ability to manouvre.

Then, against two battleships and two heavy cruisers, he was silenced in 6 minutes!

09:02 first registered hit on the Bismarck.
09:08 two turrets knocked out, the Bismarck can no longer register where hits fall and can thus not calculate fire against the enemy vessels.
09:13 both fire control stations knocked out - Bismarck can not fire at his enemies at all.
09:21 third turret knocked out.
09:31 last turret knocked out.

In 6 minutes, Bismarck lost its ability to hit its enemies. In 11 minutes, he lost the ability to fire indirectly. In 19 minutes, 75% of the firepower was out. In 29 minutes she was completely silenced and the British could sail up to point blank range and fire away, ripping away all super-structure of the Bismarck.

Note that this is similar to the Japanese Kirishima (taken into service 1913) in the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal against USS Washington. And the Japanese designed battleships with flaws and were notorious for bad damage control.
 

Geon

Donor
Sink the Bismarck redux

On another thread I mentioned my thoughts on what would happen if Bismarck managed to reach Brest. To recapitualte the points I made then if I may.

First--Bismarck had sunk the pride of the English fleet, namely the Hood. Churchill was not going to let this rest. Note that in OTL he called out most of the British Atlantic Fleet and even pulled Force H out of the Mediterranean to hunt for Bismarck. When Churchill said "sink the Bismarck at all costs," he meant business.


Second -- I could therefore see Bismarck becoming the most wanted ship on the high seas. I could also see Britain willing to take very great chances to get the ship. These would include but not be limited to:
  • Sending bombers to Brest to try to destroy Bismarck in the harbor.
  • Sending a Dieppe style commando raid to blow up Bismarck.
  • "Requesting" that the French underground mount a raid to sabotage Bismarck.
Third -- During the famous Channel Dash, Bismarck would most likely be with the other vessels. I could see the Dash becoming even more bloody from the British side as they tried to seek revenge on the Bismarck. I could even see them risking a naval battle in the Channel to sink her.

Fourth -- Assuming she got back to Germany safely, she and her crew would be the toast of all of Germany. Hitler would want to send her out again in the company of the Tirpitz, a prospect which would cause the Allies great concern.

Finally -- When, not if, Bismarck and Tirpitz put to sea again, and here I am assuming that if Bismarck returns the reasons for Tirpitz being sunk are butterflied away, you would have an epic naval clash between these two battleships and their support vessels such as the Prinz Eugen and a large part of the Allied navies.

Geon
 
If Bismarck somehow made it back to Germany, a la OTL Cerebus, she would certainly have ended her commerceraiding, as Hitler and the German Navy had more important things on their mind, due to the Russian Front opening in summer 1941. Like in the OTL, the bulk of the German Navy would go to Norway, as in the OTL only to stay there until recalled back to the Baltic for a refit or so, or get sunk eventually in the far North, (as with OTL Scharnhorst and Tirpitz).

Commerceraiding was a thing for the light forces and U-Boote only, as the big ships were too ineffective in times when Allied (British) radar and airpower were beginning to get troublesome for the germans, The Big ships would stay in the North, as airpower there was not always possible to deploy, due to the conditions there, while radar too could be hampered by the poor wheather conditions in the stormy waters in the region. Here the changes for the large German ships, relatively close to their bases, were better suited than in the hostile Atlantic, where there simply were no bases to recover, as those in occupied France all were under constant RAF bombing.
 
she would never make it out of france

luftflotten III was a rump with the start of barbarossa (it had less than 300 fighters)... the RAF would committ EVERYTHING even risking taking horrific pilot casualties to put her out of action

carriers would assail her from the bay as well

she would be damaged continually until the lancs got their heavier bombs to capsize her OR the germans would get tired of trying to fix it under fire and just abandon her to be sunk
 
she would never make it out of france

luftflotten III was a rump with the start of barbarossa (it had less than 300 fighters)... the RAF would committ EVERYTHING even risking taking horrific pilot casualties to put her out of action

carriers would assail her from the bay as well

she would be damaged continually until the lancs got their heavier bombs to capsize her OR the germans would get tired of trying to fix it under fire and just abandon her to be sunk



About the British commitment, I agree, but the tools to use is something else, as the RAF was far from capable to deal a crippling blow to ships in either port or at sea. Coastal Command simply had not enough Beauforts, capable of torpedobombing and FAA torpedobombers at its disposal, since Malta was still under siege and drew away most of these far too few in number planes. Other bombers of the RAF were only capable of levelbombing, which is of no use at all against moving targets. (Only if the ships were in ports, this type of bombing would make sense. Problem then was that Brest and St. Nazaire were out of reach for fightercover, meaning the bombers would face the Luftwaffe Bf-109's and FW-190's alone, likely resulting in severe losses, while bombing at night was still not that accurate. The severely increased landbased heavy FLAK around the ports too would make its toll, as it was at that time already radar controlled.)

Sending in the Fleet so near Coastal France was not a thing the British would doo, as the Royal Navy was simply too few in numbers already, while still a force to be taken serious, while intact. They also had to deal with the Nrothern routes as well, since both Tirpitz was likely to remain a threath there, together with the remaining German heavy cruisers. So no battleships near the coast of France and certainly no carriers, as there were even fewer of these. (Fear for Luftwaffe bombers still, dispite weakened numbers.)

So the British would certainly try to catch the ships, eitehr in port or at sea, but would likely not be all that succesfull.
 
About the British commitment, I agree, but the tools to use is something else, as the RAF was far from capable to deal a crippling blow to ships in either port or at sea. Coastal Command simply had not enough Beauforts, capable of torpedobombing and FAA torpedobombers at its disposal, since Malta was still under siege and drew away most of these far too few in number planes. Other bombers of the RAF were only capable of levelbombing, which is of no use at all against moving targets. (Only if the ships were in ports, this type of bombing would make sense. Problem then was that Brest and St. Nazaire were out of reach for fightercover, meaning the bombers would face the Luftwaffe Bf-109's and FW-190's alone, likely resulting in severe losses, while bombing at night was still not that accurate. The severely increased landbased heavy FLAK around the ports too would make its toll, as it was at that time already radar controlled.)

Sending in the Fleet so near Coastal France was not a thing the British would doo, as the Royal Navy was simply too few in numbers already, while still a force to be taken serious, while intact. They also had to deal with the Nrothern routes as well, since both Tirpitz was likely to remain a threath there, together with the remaining German heavy cruisers. So no battleships near the coast of France and certainly no carriers, as there were even fewer of these. (Fear for Luftwaffe bombers still, dispite weakened numbers.)

So the British would certainly try to catch the ships, eitehr in port or at sea, but would likely not be all that succesfull.


I don't disagree that they could get a bloody lip in their first attempts but the long term result would not be in doubt

lancasters at night don't have to hit the ship, they just have to be relatively close... near misses or damage to the dockyard will keep her in port forever until she can be sunk by heavier bombs or another option

it wouldn't be particularly risky to send arc royal and a small task force for a dusk strike on st nazaire... the entire LW is in Russia; bombing capability against their task force would be fairly limited, and if she could be gutted a la the raid on taranto, it might be worth the risk (given churchill's thinking on such things)
 

Deleted member 1487

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=149330 Serious discussion of the issues of targeting German ships at Brest. It would be a nightmare for the RAF at St. Nazaire and a commando raid would be extremely bloody, which is why it had been ruled out earlier for the Bismarck and later for the Tirpitz. The RAF probably would get the Bismarck eventually if at St. Nazaire, but the cost would be pyrrhic and give the Germans a massive break from British efforts to bomb the Ruhr. Vector in fighters not needed there and the trap gets that much nastier. One other issue to consider is that the Germans were VERY good at 'passive' AA measures, meaning deception by artificially changing ground features to create major difficulties in identifying ground targets/navigating. Until 1944 the Germans managed to do this quite well at home for minimal cost (notable exceptions of course being Hamburg and some Ruhr cities, but with enough effort the Brits were bound to hit the target at least some of the time).
Another thing that people don't seem to realize is how terrifying bombing is, especially when there are large defenses around the target. The Bismarck is not a city or any other large target, its quite small all things considered, which means horizontal, high level bombing is going to be wildly inaccurate. For example something like less than 1% of bombs dropped on the Scharnhorst in Brest actually hit the ship, while more tonnage was expended on the effort than many Ruhr cities at that point.
Add in the fact that the Germans know which target is being sought, instead of having to guess, as in over Germany, the port where the Bismarck is can become a formidable concentration of FLAK, fighters, radar, etc. that would make any pilot, commando, planner cringe. Methinks there will be some early dropping of bombs by pilots to dodge the FLAK nest.
Furthermore realize that 1941-42 is NOT 1944 in terms of bombing precision/training/quality equipment/bombs. Early efforts are not going to fun.
 

Deleted member 9338

Why would the Germans move down to the port facilities at Bordeaux?
 
I don't disagree that they could get a bloody lip in their first attempts but the long term result would not be in doubt

lancasters at night don't have to hit the ship, they just have to be relatively close... near misses or damage to the dockyard will keep her in port forever until she can be sunk by heavier bombs or another option

it wouldn't be particularly risky to send arc royal and a small task force for a dusk strike on st nazaire... the entire LW is in Russia; bombing capability against their task force would be fairly limited, and if she could be gutted a la the raid on taranto, it might be worth the risk (given churchill's thinking on such things)


Most of this was known to both British and Gemrans as well, appart form the Luftwaffe thing, as there still were Luftwaffe Groups of both bombers and fighters stationed around both Chanal and Western France. Dispite being somewhat lower in numbers than previously, they still packed a serious punch against shipping, which was the reason the Royal Navy would refuse to send in the big ships to the French coast. Even with just a few bombers left in occupied France, the Royal Navy show was off.

Besides that, HMS Ark Royal was to valuable to be sacrificed in such a suicidal attack, as she was not very strongly protected against bombattacks, especially not those of the Stuka Dive Bomber units left in France. (Mainly to protect coastal shipping and harrish coastal convoy's in the Channal region.) An Illustrious would have been better, although she carried fewer aircraft herself and those FAA planes in service were totally outclassed by any Luftwaffe fighter.

About the Lancaster Bomber you seem to forget that this heavyweight was not in service in large numbers yet and too badly needed to attack other targets in the German Hartland itself, simply because of its long range. The bulk of the bomberfleet was still made up of twin engined medium bomber, which lacked both payload and defensive strength to survive for long in enemy territory. Occasionally the bombers did get an opportunity to strike the ships in French ports, but more than often they did not, as they were recaled due to wheather problems, navigational issues, enemy fighter attacks, far too heavy FLAK (around Brest alone more than 1000 heavy FLAK guns of 7,5 cm and larger, besides numereous smaller ones), ships moving to other porst occasionally and so on.

Also take into consideration that the very large bombs of the late war did not exist yet, so most heavy bombs were around the 500 to 1000 lbs at best, while the bulk of the bombs was much smaller. 1000 lbs GP bombs do not well against heavily armored targets, while specially addapted Armor Piercing bombs can, but need to be dropped with much more precission to do their job. The RAF simply lacked a good and reliable targetting device for these special AP bombs yet.
 
Why would the Germans move down to the port facilities at Bordeaux?

Bordeaux was not a large navalbase and lacked the facilities to support ships larger than destroyers. There were far to small docks, which were totally unsuited for warships larger than some 150 meters, meaning not even the light cruisers of the Kriegsmarine could use these docks.
 
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