Biggest possible Prussia in a post-napoleonic Europe?

How much can Prussia get at the Congress of Vienna? And how can it become more liberal

The two are kind of mutually exclusive. The more land it receives the more likely it is to suffer from "nationalistic" rebellions (e.g Saxony in OTL) and the less liberal it will become.
 
Succeed against a Prussia that is making territorial gains because of their army's power? I don't think so :D

Unless of course somehow the best elements of Blücher's army are the non-Prussians who then want to break away...
 
Once saw a map which added Belgium to Prussia after Vienna.
Vienna is too late for a Prussian Belgium. Partly because Prussia didn't want Belgium and partly because it was already decided that the Netherlands would get it. The only thing not decided was the eastern border of the Netherlands. So it is possible for Prussia to gain for example the Meusse border (thus most of Dutch Limburg, Luxemburg and a large part of the Liege and naumer provinces of Belgium. This realy would be the best prussia could hope for I think and is actaly more than Prussia wanted. More likely they would just gain Luxemburg.
 
The only thing not decided was the eastern border of the Netherlands. So it is possible for Prussia to gain for example the Meusse border (thus most of Dutch Limburg, Luxemburg and a large part of the Liege and naumer provinces of Belgium. This realy would be the best prussia could hope for I think and is actaly more than Prussia wanted. More likely they would just gain Luxemburg.

That reminds me of a French proposal a few years later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talleyrand_partition_plan_for_Belgium
 
That reminds me of a French proposal a few years later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talleyrand_partition_plan_for_Belgium
I effectively based it on that. OTL Prussia only wanted Luxemburg in Vienna. It was clear that Prussia did not care about the rest, since they gave the Netherlands almost all the parts that used to be part of the Southern Netherlands, including the parts that used to be Prussian. It was obvious they cared more about a reasonable border than gaining more territory in the south west.

As I said, the river Meusse as a border would be the best Prussia could hope for and it is not a realistic option, especialy considering Prussia didn't care for it. Actualy, I belive prussia would give up most of the Rhineland, if they would be able to gain all of Saxony.

The problem with a trying to gain an as big as possible Prussia, or any other country at Vienna, is that all countries that lose something, would need to be compensated in some other way. That was what happened in Vienna. Exchanging territories for other territories that would be as valuable. To gain a post Napoleonic Prussia "wank", you need a POD before Vienna. Probably a POD during the Napoleonic wars, that would put more countries on the losing side.
 
I effectively based it on that. OTL Prussia only wanted Luxemburg in Vienna. It was clear that Prussia did not care about the rest, since they gave the Netherlands almost all the parts that used to be part of the Southern Netherlands, including the parts that used to be Prussian. It was obvious they cared more about a reasonable border than gaining more territory in the south west.

As I said, the river Meusse as a border would be the best Prussia could hope for and it is not a realistic option, especialy considering Prussia didn't care for it. Actualy, I belive prussia would give up most of the Rhineland, if they would be able to gain all of Saxony.

IIRC, it was rather British 'persuasion' that made Prussia accept Rhenish territories over territories directly bordering Prussia herself. Prussia was seen as a necessary bulwark against possible future French expansionism in that region.
 
Systematic:
+ more Poland? Very difficult, since Tsar Alexander wanted to become the liberator and king of Poland. Killing Alexander with that cannonball in Leipzig gets us Tsar Constantin ... but still Prussia does not necessarily want much more Poles in 1815.
+ more Hanover? Impossible in 1815.
+ Holstein? As a way to punish Denmark? Very unlikely.
+ more Franconia? Getting back Ansbach-Bayreuth and acquiring Bamberg and Würzburg plus smaller parts would be possible if the King of Bavaria is as loyal to Napoleon as the King of Saxony was OTL and so his realm gets diminished or dismembered.
+ more Saxony? This is a thing the Prussian government wanted OTL: All of Saxony and perhaps even parts of the Thuringian principalities. Maybe, if they somehow become even more important in the defeat of Napoleon than in OTL.
 
Systematic:
+ more Poland? Very difficult, since Tsar Alexander wanted to become the liberator and king of Poland. Killing Alexander with that cannonball in Leipzig gets us Tsar Constantin ... but still Prussia does not necessarily want much more Poles in 1815.
+ more Hanover? Impossible in 1815.
+ Holstein? As a way to punish Denmark? Very unlikely.
+ more Franconia? Getting back Ansbach-Bayreuth and acquiring Bamberg and Würzburg plus smaller parts would be possible if the King of Bavaria is as loyal to Napoleon as the King of Saxony was OTL and so his realm gets diminished or dismembered.
+ more Saxony? This is a thing the Prussian government wanted OTL: All of Saxony and perhaps even parts of the Thuringian principalities. Maybe, if they somehow become even more important in the defeat of Napoleon than in OTL.
Yeah, it is quite hard to expand Prussia in 1815. You realy need a POD in the late Napoleonic wars. I came to the same conclusion when I wanted to create a bigger Netherlands with the same POD.
 
Yeah, it is quite hard to expand Prussia in 1815. You realy need a POD in the late Napoleonic wars. I came to the same conclusion when I wanted to create a bigger Netherlands with the same POD.

So what could be a better POD for a bigger Prussia?
 
So what could be a better POD for a bigger Prussia?

Moscow isn't burned in 1812 following a much more decisive French victory in the Battle of Borodino, the Grande Armée captures desperately needed supplies there and has a much more organised retreat from Russia. Without the massive losses from OTL, the outbreak of the War of the Sixth Coalition is delayed, giving Napoleon enough time to pursue his Iberian campaign. Eventually, the War of the Sixth Coalition will break out nevertheless, with more Prussian auxiliary returnees from the French invasion of Russia siding against France than IOTL. With Prussia having a larger military power, they assume the leading role in the anti-French coalition and deal the French a couple of decisive blows. In TTL's equivalent to the Congress of Vienna, Prussia would be in a much stronger position, and could indeed achieve to acquire the territories that it initially desired (possible plus those that it got anyway IOTL).
 
So what could be a better POD for a bigger Prussia?

From the beginning of the kingdom in 1701, Prussia was basically hedged in by Poland (basically a Russian vassal), Austria and Hanover (practically a possession of the British king). That leaves the possibility of a union with Sweden, which would make Prussia an automatic rival of Russia. ot a good thing to be.

Going back even further in time, we might kill the future William III (stadholder and English/Scottish king) before his birth. Politically, that will not change much until 1672 as that was the first stadholder-less period in the Netherlands anyway. But if Louis XIV attacks the Netherlands as OTL, then the Dutch must look for another "saviour".
Frederick William, the "Great Elector" of Brandenburg, has studied in Leyden, sent 20.000 troops in support of the Netherlands in OTL. He is married to Louise Henriette of Orange, the eldest daughter of Stadholder Frederick Henry.
Despite the electoral rank, Brandenburg in 1672 is a impoverished part of the HRE. Having the House of Orange-Hohenzollern as stadtholder dynasty would not mean "Prussia gobbling up the Netherlands", far from it, even if the Hohenzollern domains of Cleves, Mark, Lingen, Minden etc. would become valuable in defending the Seven Provinces. From there, a North-West German conglomerate of domains with overseas possessions might develop. But Ducal Prussia might be spun off to a junior branch while Frederick Williams heir (Charles Emilius, due to butterflies?) might even try to acquire a royal title based on the Netherlands instead of Prussia.
 
And much closer to 1815:

1806: With Queen Louise dying early that year, the anti-French party in Berlin loses an influential voice. No declaration of war, no disastrous defeat at Jena and Auerstädt.
Instead, Prussia chooses the role of French ally and accepts the (OTL) vague offer by Napoleon to become the leader of a North German empire.
Napoleon still creates the Confederation of the Rhine in the 1806 borders, but everything north and east of it (mainly Saxony, the Thuringias, Hesse-Cassel, Oldenburg and the Mecklenburgs) becomes a nominal Prussian vassal [Note: On the map, the CotR is demarkated with a thicker red border.]. Later during her alliance with France, this Prussia acquires most or all of the Austrian parts of the Polish partitions.

p806d_12.07_a4_mb.gif


Now making that stick against the opposition of the British Regent and probably the Austrian Emperor is a different thing.
 
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