Biggest Possible Italy?

This is up until modern day but seeing as Italy formed before 1900 I figured it's best to put it here.

Basically, what is the maximum amount of land that could be under Italy's control?
 
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This? ;-)
 

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None, although I would like Italy to unify around the same time as our world (obviously with some leeway)

And butterflies should be kept small, an Italian Napoleon or something like that is out of the question lol

In which case, Big Italy would probably be somewhere around the size it was during WWII, with maybe a little more land here and there.
 
Italy+Dalmatian coast+Corfu+assorted other Greek Islands+Libya? Ethiopia was a slightly random addition, if you're looking for the biggest 'natural' Italy, IE the center and its hinterlands, these seem the most logical. Perhaps it could acquire the Balearic Islands? Probably not Morocco or Malta, too many big powers to fight. Could it take Crete without sparking a bigger war than it could win?
 
Italy+Dalmatian coast+Corfu+assorted other Greek Islands+Libya? Ethiopia was a slightly random addition, if you're looking for the biggest 'natural' Italy, IE the center and its hinterlands, these seem the most logical. Perhaps it could acquire the Balearic Islands? Probably not Morocco or Malta, too many big powers to fight. Could it take Crete without sparking a bigger war than it could win?
The only way I could see it getting the Balearics is in the Spanish Civil War, but only if the Republicans win - Otherwise I feel they would definitely try to take them back.

Morocco I agree can't really be done. Malta... maybe? In 1803 in the Treaty of Amiens, Britain was supposed to return Malta to The Knights but just didn't. If they kept their promise and Malta somehow didnt get invaded again until Italy forms they would probably scoop them up. Getting Britain to stick to the treaty is easy, the hard part is keeping Malta independent for 50 years or having another Italian power conquer them beforehand.

Theoretically they could have taken Crete rather than Rhodes & the Dodecanese in the Italian-Turkish war (the same war they took Libya), but I'm pretty sure they wanted more of the random Aegean islands rather than Crete, and they definitely didnt do enough damage in our world to take both. Plus, Greece was adamant Crete was theres, despite not controlling it, so Italy taking it for themselves will most likely cause conflict between the two. But I guess you *could* have the Ottomans fight especially poorly and justify it.

How do you think they could have Corfu? As far as I'm aware the only time it was Italian territory was in WW2 and obviously that didnt go too well lol
 
Why not something like Ostrogothic Italy?

EU19_08.jpg

they almost attained dominion over the Visigoths. Had they been successful this would have created a Romano-Gothic Western Empire. You could also have a successful Lombard Kingdom expand into North Africa as well. Another scenario I can think of is an Italian centered HRE. You could have the Canossa landsand dynasty stay intact where the control most of Italy and marry into the Dalian Imperial Dynasty. Or you could have Otto the Great not take over Italy which means the Imperial title stays as part of Italy rather than Germany. For a 15the century pod you could have the Visconti survive. They only failed because the plague killed Gian Galeazzo. He was an administrative genius and talented militum commander who had many scientific treatises compiled in his library and created the first proto-bureaucracy in Europe.

You could also have the war if Sicilian Vespers not take place and Charles d’Anjou is more successful. He could win the 8th crusade against Tunis and take the title of King of Arles like he almost did in otl. This means that Naples can exert its influence and weight to slowly unify Italy.
 
The only way I could see it getting the Balearics is in the Spanish Civil War, but only if the Republicans win - Otherwise I feel they would definitely try to take them back.

Morocco I agree can't really be done. Malta... maybe? In 1803 in the Treaty of Amiens, Britain was supposed to return Malta to The Knights but just didn't. If they kept their promise and Malta somehow didnt get invaded again until Italy forms they would probably scoop them up. Getting Britain to stick to the treaty is easy, the hard part is keeping Malta independent for 50 years or having another Italian power conquer them beforehand.

Theoretically they could have taken Crete rather than Rhodes & the Dodecanese in the Italian-Turkish war (the same war they took Libya), but I'm pretty sure they wanted more of the random Aegean islands rather than Crete, and they definitely didnt do enough damage in our world to take both. Plus, Greece was adamant Crete was theres, despite not controlling it, so Italy taking it for themselves will most likely cause conflict between the two. But I guess you *could* have the Ottomans fight especially poorly and justify it.

How do you think they could have Corfu? As far as I'm aware the only time it was Italian territory was in WW2 and obviously that didnt go too well lol
Fair point, Corfu is a bit of a reach. If the challenge is biggest possible post unification Italy, then the POD should presumably post date that, so I still think Malta is out. More Greek islands is definitely doable though.

So are you suggesting basically Italy, most of the Balkans, the Balerics (just about), Libya, maybe Rhodes, theoretically Crete. Anything else requires a POD that weakens france/Spain/The ottomans/All of the above, or at least makes Malta available? And for an overseas empire, maybe Ethiopia as OTL... anywhere else?
 
Why not something like Ostrogothic Italy?

EU19_08.jpg

they almost attained dominion over the Visigoths. Had they been successful this would have created a Romano-Gothic Western Empire. You could also have a successful Lombard Kingdom expand into North Africa as well. Another scenario I can think of is an Italian centered HRE. You could have the Canossa landsand dynasty stay intact where the control most of Italy and marry into the Dalian Imperial Dynasty. Or you could have Otto the Great not take over Italy which means the Imperial title stays as part of Italy rather than Germany. For a 15the century pod you could have the Visconti survive. They only failed because the plague killed Gian Galeazzo. He was an administrative genius and talented militum commander who had many scientific treatises compiled in his library and created the first proto-bureaucracy in Europe.

You could also have the war if Sicilian Vespers not take place and Charles d’Anjou is more successful. He could win the 8th crusade against Tunis and take the title of King of Arles like he almost did in otl. This means that Naples can exert its influence and weight to slowly unify Italy.

Odoacer is shaking his fist at you.
 
Fair point, Corfu is a bit of a reach. If the challenge is biggest possible post unification Italy, then the POD should presumably post date that, so I still think Malta is out. More Greek islands is definitely doable though.

So are you suggesting basically Italy, most of the Balkans, the Balerics (just about), Libya, maybe Rhodes, theoretically Crete. Anything else requires a POD that weakens france/Spain/The ottomans/All of the above, or at least makes Malta available? And for an overseas empire, maybe Ethiopia as OTL... anywhere else?
As for colonies:
Libya
Somalia
Eritrea
Ethiopia

Are all doable as they happened in our world. Tunisia maybe, as there was a lot of competition between Italy and France over who would get it but France ended up just invading and neither side wanted a full scale war over it so Italy relented. Say Italy invades first and its the same situation just flipped?

Other than that you'll definitely struggle. They did have some influence in Borneo and Siam but theres no chance theyd win a war against Britain/Netherlands, and with how far away Siam is itd be a bit of a leap.
 
Well, in theory if they had joined the Central Powers in World War One, they could have looked to take Haute Savoie, Nice, Corsica and Tunisia from France, Malta and Gozo from Britain etc

They were already allied to Montenegro through marriage, so could potentially have orchestrated a division of Albania
 
Fair point, Corfu is a bit of a reach. If the challenge is biggest possible post unification Italy, then the POD should presumably post date that, so I still think Malta is out. More Greek islands is definitely doable though.

So are you suggesting basically Italy, most of the Balkans, the Balerics (just about), Libya, maybe Rhodes, theoretically Crete. Anything else requires a POD that weakens france/Spain/The ottomans/All of the above, or at least makes Malta available? And for an overseas empire, maybe Ethiopia as OTL... anywhere else?
Malta was discussed as a possible concession to the Italians in 1940 OTL.
 
The only Italian state that had a respectable Army in that period was Sardinia.
What about Naples? Napoli was the third largest city in Europe, and it was the largest state in Italy. If it had some Prussian style reformer Kings, Naples could easily expand and quietly build its own Mediterranean Empire. Plus with this Italy they're likely to be more conciliatory to the Pope meaning that they're likely to keep the Pope ruling Rome. This shouldn't be that difficult, as Prussia started with worse odds as it was a fringe backwater on the outskirts of Germany. No one expected its massive rise within a generation. Naples though has to work on reforming its administration, navy, and re-integrating Sicily back into the fold into a unitary state.
 
Depends on what were discussing


For post unification, Dalmatia, part or all of of Slovenia, albania, some of the Greek islands, nice, corsica, savoy, malta....
Beat case scenario, say Italy does better in the wars of independence and annexed Trento, Dalmatia and Istria if and when ustria collapses, and clientizing croatia and Serbia. They ally with greater Germany (plus russia?) against France and Britain, take Tunisia, Algeria, tangiers, malta, egypt, cyprus. War with the Ottomans to take parts of anatolia and the levant (jerusalem, plus dominion over arabia and maybe iraq). Clientize spain and Greece. Maybe throw in a few asian colonies and a big chunk of africa.
 
What about Naples? Napoli was the third largest city in Europe, and it was the largest state in Italy. If it had some Prussian style reformer Kings, Naples could easily expand and quietly build its own Mediterranean Empire. Plus with this Italy they're likely to be more conciliatory to the Pope meaning that they're likely to keep the Pope ruling Rome. This shouldn't be that difficult, as Prussia started with worse odds as it was a fringe backwater on the outskirts of Germany. No one expected its massive rise within a generation. Naples though has to work on reforming its administration, navy, and re-integrating Sicily back into the fold into a unitary state.
Prussia didn’t rise in a generation. It rose as a result of the policies of Hohenzollerns that preceded Frederick the Great, starting in the mid 17th Century. Napoleon felt that a single Sardinian regiment would be enough to topple the Kingdom of Italy that he had created. Granted, his opinion changed after a few years and they did go on to perform well in Spain, Russia and against the Austrians. I’d still say that the Sardinian Army would be his best bet and it’s the most similar of the Italian states to Prussia.
 
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