Biggest Balkanization of North America in CS Victory TL

mowque

Banned
Reasonably? Probably just Canada, USA, CSA and Mexico (Yucatan isn't really too crazy either).
 
Reasonably? Probably just Canada, USA, CSA and Mexico (Yucatan isn't really too crazy either).

Really? I have a CSA wins scenario that has a CSA collapse circa 1930 ending with Texas, Louisiana, *New afrika, Appalachia and a rump CSA. That along with an independent Vandalia consisting of W. Virgnia and Kentucky. Could probably squeze a Sequoyah in there too.

Also two *Canadas (east and west w/ border at continental divide), no need to consolidate, Mexico and an occasionally free Yucutan.

Would post map but it is not on this computer.
 
Most reasonably most Balkanized?

(1) The United States of America (The "North" in the ACW, including all of the former US territories in the west)

(2) The Confederate States of America (the ACW CSA minus Texas)

(3) The Republic of Texas (OTL Texas plus Indian Territory)

(4) British Canada

(5) Mexico

(6) Yucatan

(7) Russian America


A far less likey but still somewhat plausble situation based on possible trends established by CSA victory - especially increased secession movements in former USA and

(1) The United States of America (old USA excluding northern plains, New England, and possibly the Free City of New York.

(2) New England Republic

(3) Free City of New York (Why not?)

(4) Dakota Territory (British/Canadian dominated buffer area carved from the former US northern and central plains/montaine territories (the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, maybe Idaho)

(5) Deseret (gotta have this, right? Mormon dominated landlocked nation including all or most of Utah, Nevada).

(6) California Republic (name says it all)

(7) Lower California (Californian protectorate in OTL Baja Californiua)

(8) Dominion of Vancouver (OTL Oregon, Washington and BC - British dominated but independent)

(9) Dominion of North America (baslically OTL Canada minus BC)

(10) Alaskan SSR

(11) Confederate States of America (OTL CSA "core" consisting of South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi)

(12) Lousiana (largely Catholic and heavily francophone creole aristocrats have enough of CSA waspiness and leave, taking New Orleans with it.

(13) Republic of Texas (massively enlarged Lone Star Republic including all of OTL Texas, Indian Territory, Arkansas, and OTL New Mexico and Arizona.

(14) Mexico del Norte (Independent republic consisting Sonora and Chihuahua. A Texas protectorate).

(15) Mexico (OTL Mexico minus MdN and Yucatan)

(16) Yucatan (an independent British protectorate)

(17) Florida

(18) Guatemala

(19) Honduras

(20) Costa Rica

(21) Nicaragua

(22) El Salvador

(23) Dominion of British Central America (OLT Belize, Roatan Island, Mosquito Coast, and Panama - including a British operated Panama Canal)
 
Most reasonably most Balkanized?

(1) The United States of America (The "North" in the ACW, including all of the former US territories in the west)

(2) The Confederate States of America (the ACW CSA minus Texas)

(3) The Republic of Texas (OTL Texas plus Indian Territory)

(4) British Canada

(5) Mexico

(6) Yucatan

(7) Russian America


A far less likey but still somewhat plausble situation based on possible trends established by CSA victory - especially increased secession movements in former USA and

(1) The United States of America (old USA excluding northern plains, New England, and possibly the Free City of New York.

(2) New England Republic

(3) Free City of New York (Why not?)

(4) Dakota Territory (British/Canadian dominated buffer area carved from the former US northern and central plains/montaine territories (the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, maybe Idaho)

(5) Deseret (gotta have this, right? Mormon dominated landlocked nation including all or most of Utah, Nevada).

(6) California Republic (name says it all)

(7) Lower California (Californian protectorate in OTL Baja Californiua)

(8) Dominion of Vancouver (OTL Oregon, Washington and BC - British dominated but independent)

(9) Dominion of North America (baslically OTL Canada minus BC)

(10) Alaskan SSR

(11) Confederate States of America (OTL CSA "core" consisting of South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi)

(12) Lousiana (largely Catholic and heavily francophone creole aristocrats have enough of CSA waspiness and leave, taking New Orleans with it.

(13) Republic of Texas (massively enlarged Lone Star Republic including all of OTL Texas, Indian Territory, Arkansas, and OTL New Mexico and Arizona.

(14) Mexico del Norte (Independent republic consisting Sonora and Chihuahua. A Texas protectorate).

(15) Mexico (OTL Mexico minus MdN and Yucatan)

(16) Yucatan (an independent British protectorate)

(17) Florida

(18) Guatemala

(19) Honduras

(20) Costa Rica

(21) Nicaragua

(22) El Salvador

(23) Dominion of British Central America (OLT Belize, Roatan Island, Mosquito Coast, and Panama - including a British operated Panama Canal)
Don't forget that in Yucatan you could have both a 'Hispanic'-controlled state (in the south-west) and a 'Mayan revival' one (in the north): That situation actually existed for a while IOTL...
 
Don't forget that in Yucatan you could have both a 'Hispanic'-controlled state (in the south-west) and a 'Mayan revival' one (in the north): That situation actually existed for a while IOTL...

True, but want to see a Mayan revival one only (
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
An independent Mormon state of Deseret is sort of a staple of alternate history. But would its existence by all that implausible?
 
An independent Mormon state of Deseret is sort of a staple of alternate history. But would its existence by all that implausible?

The best way might be if, instead of going to a nominally US territory, large numbers of Mormons fled to one of the lightly populated north Mexician states like Sonora or Chihuahua in the 1850s, evenulally fighting a Texas-style war in independence from Mexico - possibly during the OTL US Civil War. The US would already have acheived its "sea to sea" destiny so there would be less desire to annex Sonora/Deseret, and the Mormons would not seek US annexation even if, like Texas, they ruled a failed state (Take that Texas!)
 
Actually, if the Union splits, the north will have to keep lots of troops on the csa border. This means theyre less of a threat to bna. Which, in turn, means theres less pus for confederation. Thus you could easily end up with five or more britsh dominions.

Newfoundland
Pei
nnova scotia
New brunswick
Canada
Rupertsland
Bc

Canada could even end up split into upper and lower ... ontario and quebec.

There could well be some merging, but there might not be, too.
 
Actually, if the Union splits, the north will have to keep lots of troops on the csa border. This means theyre less of a threat to bna. Which, in turn, means theres less pus for confederation. Thus you could easily end up with five or more britsh dominions.

Newfoundland
Pei
nnova scotia
New brunswick
Canada
Rupertsland
Bc

Canada could even end up split into upper and lower ... ontario and quebec.

There could well be some merging, but there might not be, too.

Afraid I don't see more than 3 *Canadas (East, West and Newfoundland), simply too small of a population.
 
Afraid I don't see more than 3 *Canadas (East, West and Newfoundland), simply too small of a population.

Which why all the british colonies in the caribbean formed a single state?

Pei fought against confederation iotl for some, despite being the smallest colony. Newfoundland didnt join until after wwii.

Some level of uniting is probable, but 5 dominions would be EASY to get. 9 would be possible, but improbable.
4 is is likely a minimum, absent significannt outside pressure.
 
Actually, if the Union splits, the north will have to keep lots of troops on the csa border. This means theyre less of a threat to bna. Which, in turn, means theres less pus for confederation. Thus you could easily end up with five or more britsh dominions.

Newfoundland
Pei
nnova scotia
New brunswick
Canada
Rupertsland
Bc

Canada could even end up split into upper and lower ... ontario and quebec.

There could well be some merging, but there might not be, too.

I see things in an opposite fashion. In your scenario, the US maintains a large standing army and presumably keeps upgrading it. Ditto a functional ocean going navy. Even with the bulk of this large modern army stationed along the USA/CSA border, the US with its industrial capacity and growing population, would be a much more dangerous threat to British North America than it was in OTL where it basically maitained a tiny army capable only of pacifying Native American tribes. If anything, I suspect this might force union of Canada even earlier - as well as retard the move toward self-government
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I see things in an opposite fashion. In your scenario, the US maintains a large standing army and presumably keeps upgrading it. Ditto a functional ocean going navy. Even with the bulk of this large modern army stationed along the USA/CSA border, the US with its industrial capacity and growing population, would be a much more dangerous threat to British North America than it was in OTL where it basically maitained a tiny army capable only of pacifying Native American tribes. If anything, I suspect this might force union of Canada even earlier - as well as retard the move toward self-government

Not only that, but an independent CSA and perhaps additional balkanization would leave North America politically more unstable than would otherwise have been the case. The potential for conflict would have been much greater. The British and Canadians would therefore feel more compelled to confederate Canada, not less so.
 
True, but want to see a Mayan revival one only (
Honestly I've never heard of a separate Hispanic state existing at alongside the Maya one except for Mexico itself. The Republic of Yucatan was pretty much completely crushed by the Maya and they only survived the rebel onslaught by signing their sovereignty away. I just can't see two states existing in the Yucatan at once, at least not if one of them is a Yucateco-run state in a peninsula filled with Maya people.
 
Which why all the british colonies in the caribbean formed a single state?

Pei fought against confederation iotl for some, despite being the smallest colony. Newfoundland didnt join until after wwii.

Some level of uniting is probable, but 5 dominions would be EASY to get. 9 would be possible, but improbable.
4 is is likely a minimum, absent significannt outside pressure.


Sorry but different comparisons.

West Indies Federation (the majority of former British Caribbean) had a population of 3.2 million in 1960 vs Canada's 18.2 million. But, West Indies Density was 161.3 /km2 versus Canada's 1.82 / km2, a noticeable difference.
Dividing Canada and removing the population centers and the frontier areas would exacerbate this issue. Beyond that, the thinly populated regions would have little way to support themselves financially.
Take the Dominion of Newfoundland - this didn't happen until 1907 and did not last very long, they even gave up self-government because they couldn't support themselves. It only had 100,00 people at the turn of the century (that's .27 /km2!). And P.E.I. did give in not long after refusing to join.

It goes beyond just population wise - there are also financial (as I hitned at above) and cultural reasons too.

P.E.I. joined because it bankrupted itself with railroad debt. Newfoundland joined because it too was bankrupt. These tiny populations over large areas could not support the proper development needed to keep on par with western industrial development.

Also, why not join with peoples who speak the same language with you, are right next door and help supoport your population in a frozen lands?

Canada cannot break up that much without more drastic happenings.
 
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