Bigger America Plot

There weren't a lot of Discussion Pages regarding to a bigger America so I would want suggestions of your opinions. I will make mines later.

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But seriously, the United States was lucky to survive the War of 1812 without losing any territory. It easily could have gone much, much worse.
 
The Monroe Doctrine did say the U.S. has the right to protect other peoples in the American continents, so good excuse of annexation (or what I would call unification).

There’s a HUGE difference between guaranteeing independence and desiring accession.

Nothing from Russia because that would be a stretch.

A stretch? They discussed it OTL at the same time as the Alaska Purchase. It’s a lot more plausible than some of the above.
 
1. Britain fought the US and Napoleon simultaneously in OTL. And if there's no Peninsular Campaign, then that means that Britain is focusing even more on its navy than OTL. And it still has a massive industrial advantage. Either way, the US isn't going to be taking Jamaica, the Bahamas, Bermuda, or even Halifax during that time period.

2. Right, there were fringe movements for the US to annex Mexico among people living in the US. The Mexicans wanted nothing to do with it. Why join a country that's vastly different culturally and linguistically, especially when the majority of the people in that country are anti-Catholic racists? Also, protection is not the same thing as annexation. That's why the US dominated Latin America in OTL without annexing most of it.

3. Mexico gaining its independence makes perfect sense. But how is the US Navy defeating the Spanish Navy in the 1840s? Especially when the Spanish Navy is stronger than OTL, there's just no way the US could take Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico.

4. Most immigrants were met with extremely negative reactions. The only immigrant groups in history that weren't met with negative reactions and racism were Englishmen, Welshmen, and Scots. Everyone else was the target of anti-immigrant sentiment and extreme racism for decades. And why would holding Mexico make the US less racist? Wouldn't all the bloody rebellions and the subjugation of nonwhites make people in the US more racist?

5. So the US establishes Liberia as a way to get rid of black people, then....re-incorporates Liberia, defeating the purpose of ever creating Liberia in the first place? It's not ASB by any means, but it's definitely interesting and ironic.

6. The costs of European wars didn't persuade the European countries to sell the territories in OTL. And if there's a war in Europe, the Pacific is going to have a lot of European warships floating around. And I don't think the victorious European coalition will take to kindly to the US annexing their territory.

7. Why would the Colombians want to join with an anti-Catholic, English-speaking country hundreds of miles north of them? Especially when that country has been subjugating other Spanish-speaking Catholics?

8. Wait, there's still a Red Scare in this TL? Why? And if the US is more liberal and open, why is liberalism under attack?

I meant the common people were more liberal. The upper class and government don't budge though.
 
You probable need a POD prior to the revolution to get things started, yet late enough to keep the major reasons for the revolution to still remain in existance. So I'd go with the Seven Years war.

The best you could obtain during the ARW for a bigger america and still be plausible:

An allied Quebec which probably doesn't join the USA (it can get absorbed later on if that's your goal) but would fight beside them and gain independence during the same peace.

Nova Scotia / Acadia (find a way to minimize the Acadian expulsions to get the various rebel groups there to work together)

Bahamas - difficult due to the RN, but a more rebellios populoius will at least make Britain annoyed with them. However for the USA to gain it inneed to be handed over by the French and/or Spanish during the peace.

Bermuda - more difficult than the Bahamas, and again. The French need to take is and fulfill their promise to give it to the US at the war's end.

West and East Florida - difficult, though not sure if West Florida would be more or less difficult than the Bahamas. Again you need Spanish and/or French help here. Also need a larger (and more rebellious) initial population to make it more viable.

I don't think even a really lucky ARW would get all of the above, but could get a fair amount more than OTL. The ideal ones I think would be an independent Quebec, and gaining West Florida, The Bahamas, and Nova Scotia/New Brunswick as states.

Make the Louisiana Purchase still happen.

A war analogous to OTL 1812. US needs to be more friendly w/ France. No Quasi war, something similar to French revolution and a Napoleon figure keeps Britain really tied down, and creates the same impressment issues. While Trade with Britain still existed, w/ more friendly France there is more trade there too. All of that is disrupted by the war. Set America up as an ally w/ France in it but under strict conditions such as (kicking the British out of NA)

IndependentQuebec also getting impressed by Britain, Britain has to invade both Quebec and US during the war. Quebec falls/surrenders, but upper Canada (by now filled with America settlers) revolts/disavows the surrender and continues to resist, as do Anglo merchants in Quebec. Cue America set to absorb Upper Canada.

Give America some wins, let them retake occupied Quebec, if they somehow take York Factory, Hudson Bay Company goes with it. The tougher nuts will be Newfoundland, (maybe also the Labrador coast?). Forget being able to gain anything in the Caribbean just yet, and expect the Bahamas to be lost. (America will have to regain them in the peace, and they need to really complain about it such as if the Bahamas had become a state instead of a territory)

Britain has to decide its not worth maintaining a war in NA and in Europe at the same time. A Generous peace with conditions such as "you're not an ally of France anymore, and give us favorable trade now instead of them, and will give you back the Bahamas, Newfoundland and your NA gains. (IE you fulfilled the conditions of your alliance to France, we are leaving North America to you (except perhaps British Columbia area.. as you need a place for conflict and or purchasing later) Make these reversal of conditions good enough that French is someone pissed off at the Americans at this outcome and/or change of policy. This can lead to America-French conflict in the Caribbean later.

After the war is over, have Spain be in serious financial trouble again. Stir up significant revolt in Cuba and compelling American interests there. Make an new version of the Adams Onis-Treaty for this TTL and gain East Florida and Cuba. With all that new Northern territory in Canada the south will be wanting more slave states - IE the Caribbean (and later Texas) so you'll have some degree of support for Caribbean expansion.

Texas Independence, and war with Mexico later to gain the west and northern Mexico. Maybe a small war with France and/or later Spain to grab the Carribean islands. Buy the rest, Buy Greenland too, unless you can engineer a war with Denmark during all that mess, I think they have some Caribbean islands also.

That's about as plausible as you might get for pre-1900. You could though make America Fascists like and all "we should rule the world" attitude and gobble up the rest of the western hemisphere post 1930s or so...if that floats your boat.
 
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You probable need a POD prior to the revolution to get things started, yet late enough to keep the major reasons for the revolution to still remain in existance. So I'd go with the Seven Years war.

The best you could obtain during the ARW for a bigger america and still be plausible:

An allied Quebec which probably doesn't join the USA (it can get absorbed later on if that's your goal) but would fight beside them and gain independence during the same peace.

Nova Scotia / Acadia (find a way to minimize the Acadian expulsions to get the various rebel groups there to work together)

Bahamas - difficult due to the RN, but a more rebellios populoius will at least make Britain annoyed with them. However for the USA to gain it inneed to be handed over by the French and/or Spanish during the peace.

Bermuda - more difficult than the Bahamas, and again. The French need to take is and fulfill their promise to give it to the US at the war's end.

West and East Florida - difficult, though not sure if West Florida would be more or less difficult than the Bahamas. Again you need Spanish and/or French help here. Also need a larger (and more rebellious) initial population to make it more viable.

I don't think even a really lucky ARW would get all of the above, but could get a fair amount more than OTL. The ideal ones I think would be an independent Quebec, and gaining West Florida, The Bahamas, and Nova Scotia/New Brunswick as states.

Make the Louisiana Purchase still happen.

A war analogous to OTL 1812. US needs to be more friendly w/ France. No Quasi war, something similar to French revolution and a Napoleon figure keeps Britain really tied down, and creates the same impressment issues. While Trade with Britain still existed, w/ more friendly France there is more trade there too. All of that is disrupted by the war. Set America up as an ally w/ France in it but under strict conditions such as (kicking the British out of NA)

Independant Quebec also getting impressed by Britain, Britian has to invade both Quebec and US during the war. Quebec falls/surrenders, but upper Canda (by now filled with America settlers) revolts/disavows the surrder and continues to resist, as do Anglo merchants in Quebec. Cue America set to absorb Upper Canada.

Give America some wins, let them retake occupied, if they somehow take York Factory, Hudson ay company goes with it. The tougher nuts will be Nowfoundland, (maybe also the Labrador coast?). Forget being able to gain anything in the carribean just yet, and expect the Bahamas to be lost. (America will have to regain them in the peace)

Britain has to decide its not worth maintaining a war in NA and in Europe at the same time. A Generous peace with conditions such as "you're not an ally of France anymore, and give us favourable trade now instead of them, and will give you back the Bahamas, NewFoundland and your NA gains. (IE you fulfilled the conditons of your alliance to Franch, we are leaving North America to you (except perhaps British Columbia area.. as you need a place for conflict and or purchasing later) Make these reversal of conditions good enough that French is someone pissed off at the Americans at this outcome and/or change of policy. This can lead to America-French conflict in the Caribbean later.

After the war is over, have Spain be in serious financial trouble again. Stir up significant revolt in Cuba and compelling American interests there. Make an new version of the Adams Onis-Treaty for this TTL and gain East Florida and Cuba. With all that new Northern territory in Canada the south will be wanting more slave states - IE the Caribbean (and later Texas) so you'll have some degree of support for Caribbean expansion.

Texas Independence, and war with Mexico later to gain the west and northern Mexico. Maybe a small war with France and/or later Spain to grab the Carribean islands. Buy the rest, Buy Greenland too, unless you can engineer a war with Denmark during all that mess, I think they have some Caribbean islands also.

That's about as plausible as you might get for pre-1900. You could though make America Fascists like and all "we should rule the world" attitude and gobble up the rest of the western hemisphere post 1930s or so...if that floats your boat.

No fascists, but actually not bad.
 
Maybe if the British were distracted in America Napoleon would take advantage of it.

But for Napoleon to do so he'd need to neutralise the Royal Navy somehow. IOTL the French Navy never really recovered from having its royalist officers -- i.e., most of them -- purged after the Revolution, and Trafalgar hammered the final nail into the coffin of French maritime ambitions. Without somehow butterflying away both of these factors, and doing so in a way that still leads to a series of wars on the scale of OTL's Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, Britain's going to have little trouble keeping Napoleon out, no matter what goes down in North America.

And there is no Quebec Act.

But the underlying prejudices that led to OTL's criticism of it will still be present.

Plus, the Founding Fathers weren't so religious.

"Not being so religious" (actually "Not being orthodox Christians"; most of the Founders were still deists/generic theists) and "Being anti-Catholic" aren't mutually exclusive by any means. Besides, even if the Founding Fathers would have been happy incorporating a majority-Catholic country, it doesn't follow that Americans as a whole would be.

Thomas Jefferson sent the navy to fight African pirates


In some America Wanks, the U.S annex North Africa by 1800

You could annex Japan after WW2, and maybe Korea

Or get a piece of China after the Boxer Rebellion

Or even start settlements in Australia and New Zealand

Or, a worse WW2 where most of Europe is depopulated. The U.S could just annex them.

Israel might join out of protection

Or, if relations are still bad between America and Britain, just annex the whole British Empire

Annexing countries to your direct rule was very much out of style after WW2, though. I think the domestic and international outcry would make any blatantly imperialistic moves more trouble than they'd be worth.

Also, you don't "just annexe" one fifth of the world's land area. Even if Britain itself was too weakened to put up any resistance, trying to take over such a large amount of land whose inhabitants likely don't want you there is going to give a country one major, major headache. Imagine fifty-three simultaneous Vietnams, and you'll get some idea of the likely outcome.
 
the easiest way I can see for the US to gain some land from war of 1812 is for the negations at Ghent to continue until news about the battle of New Orleans reaches them.
 
the easiest way I can see for the US to gain some land from war of 1812 is for the negations at Ghent to continue until news about the battle of New Orleans reaches them.

Why would that help? The Battle of New Orleans ended the threat to New Orleans, but it didn't move America any closer to actually taking Canada. Heck, IOTL it didn't even end the British invasion, since they just sailed east a bit and started attacking stuff in Alabama.
 
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