Biafra or Katanga?

Which region could have become a country?

  • Biafra

    Votes: 44 51.2%
  • Katanga

    Votes: 42 48.8%

  • Total voters
    86
Biafra because it has oil, but both shouldn't be too difficult.
Biafra would probably be better than Gabon as regards to equal distribution of oil welath. If it got it's act together it could be one of the best countries to live in Africa actually.

An independent Katanga means the DRC isn't as much of a hell-hole.
 
Biafra possibly, but Katanga could have had a shot too. They also had quite a lot of mineral resources, and also quite significant foreign support.

If either of these countries had become independent, who knows what butterflies this would have caused down the line, with more acceptance of secession in those countries, and in Africa itself.

The OAU was probably right in wanting to keep colonial borders sacrosanct.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
If you ask me Katanga is MUCH more likely. The only thing you need for Katanga to succeed is by making sure the UN stays out. The central government will probably fall apart let alone being able to do anything against Katanga.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
If you ask me Katanga is MUCH more likely. The only thing you need for Katanga to succeed is by making sure the UN stays out. The central government will probably fall apart let alone being able to do anything against Katanga.

That's very true.

That being said, the Biafran military did have it's shit together. It's fucking amazing they were able to take on such huge amounts of troops for as long as they did.

(also...the Biafran War is totally in Invasion of Kenya)
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
That's very true.

That being said, the Biafran military did have it's shit together. It's fucking amazing they were able to take on such huge amounts of troops for as long as they did.

(also...the Biafran War is totally in Invasion of Kenya)

The Biafrans were amazing but they were up against a force (the Nigerian military) that wasn't going away, simply because they were next door. In the Katangese war the only party that isn't going away is the army of the Central Government and to be honest, the UN would be better off without them. Actually, IIRC the UN was only able to get anything done when the US started to get involved. There was dancing on the streets of Elisabethville when Kennedy was killed.
 
Remind why the UN stopped Katanga from suceeding again? I mean, from reading about the Congo crisis, the only reason I can see is that they were supported by the evil colonialist Belgians. (I like the UN, but they have this problem with letting their preconcieved idea of how the world works get in way of them seeing how it actually works.)
 
Based primarily on Nigeria's relatively greater stability post-independence (i.e. the one major Civil War had only 2 sides, was highish intensity and broke down almost neatly along linguistic/historical etc. divisions), I suspect Katanga had the greater chance of maintaining independence, especially in view of potential Franco-Belgian support. Also important is Nigeria's compactness and it's being slightly more urban.
That said, I'm getting a bit out of my depth on this.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor

Oh god. The writer of this article falls in the same trap a lot of other commentators of the decolonization period do: the idea that the old colonial powers are all-knowing and are able to do magic. The reason for the Katangan independence isn't because the Belgians wanted it to happen, it's because the Katangese wanted it to happen. Sure there was ALOT of Belgian support but that doesn't make it the deciding factor. What Congo needed after independence (forced WAY to early by idiots like Lumumba) was decentralization and regionalism. That or simply separation. When that failed to happen (and the country began going up in flames) it isn't a big surprise that parts started to go their own way. Was Katanga a puppet of Union Miniere? Sure. Is that bad? Given the alternative it was heaven. There was no chaos in Katanga, people had work, money was made. Look what happened when the State of Katanga was crushed. There was chaos, people didn't have work and noone in Congo would benefit from the profits of the Katangese mines.
 
Oh god. The writer of this article falls in the same trap a lot of other commentators of the decolonization period do: the idea that the old colonial powers are all-knowing and are able to do magic. The reason for the Katangan independence isn't because the Belgians wanted it to happen, it's because the Katangese wanted it to happen. Sure there was ALOT of Belgian support but that doesn't make it the deciding factor. What Congo needed after independence (forced WAY to early by idiots like Lumumba) was decentralization and regionalism. That or simply separation. When that failed to happen (and the country began going up in flames) it isn't a big surprise that parts started to go their own way. Was Katanga a puppet of Union Miniere? Sure. Is that bad? Given the alternative it was heaven. There was no chaos in Katanga, people had work, money was made. Look what happened when the State of Katanga was crushed. There was chaos, people didn't have work and noone in Congo would benefit from the profits of the Katangese mines.
My thoughts exactly.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Katanga was to land locked and would have been surrounded by potentially hostile powers
Actually, it would have found a very strong friend and ally in the Federation of Rhodesia-Nyasaland, which could have very interesting butterflies on the fates of both countries.
 

Ismail

Banned
The reason for the Katangan independence isn't because the Belgians wanted it to happen, it's because the Katangese wanted it to happen. Sure there was ALOT of Belgian support but that doesn't make it the deciding factor.
Really? The constitution (René Clemens) and flag (Louis Dressen) were made by Union Minière beneficiaries. Do you have any examples of Katangan nationalism then and now? The Lunda had ethnic tensions with the Luba from Kasaï (which CONAKAT exploited), but that doesn't mean that the "Katangans" (Lunda) got together with a national sentiment and demanded independence anymore than the creation of Manchukuo by Japan satisfied supposed Manchu resentment against the Han.

As for relations with the Central African Federation (aka Rhodesia & Nyasaland), there were actually initial talks of Katanga entering into the Federation which went nowhere. The Federation did however take a keen interest in Katangan affairs, but in December 1963 the Federation would become extinct.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Really? The constitution (René Clemens) and flag (Louis Dressen) were made by Union Minière beneficiaries. Do you have any examples of Katangan nationalism then and now? The Lunda had ethnic tensions with the Luba from Kasaï (which CONAKAT exploited), but that doesn't mean that the "Katangans" (Lunda) got together with a national sentiment and demanded independence anymore than the creation of Manchukuo by Japan satisfied supposed Manchu resentment against the Han.

As for relations with the Central African Federation (aka Rhodesia & Nyasaland), there were actually initial talks of Katanga entering into the Federation which went nowhere. The Federation did however take a keen interest in Katangan affairs, but in December 1963 the Federation would become extinct.

I'll have to look into Congo, A History for a more clearer picture but the Katangese independence was, as I said before, not because of Katangese nationalism but because of regionalism. When regionalism failed because of boneheaded nationalism from Lumumba and the likes the logical reaction from the Lunda was going for gold: independence.

King Gorilla said:
It would also continue to be a client state of France/Belgium.

Again, heaven compared to what it ended up being.
 
I'd say either COULD HAVE become a country. Hell, any piece of land on earth CAN become a country given the right conditions.
 
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