Bf110 not replaced by Me210

[thaddeus]

no HE-177. build the OTL number of FW-200s (approx. 250) and an equal number of JU-290s (instead of the handful built.) that would have been worthwhile to attack Allied shipping.

maybe a couple dozen BV-222s would have been useful..

instead of wasted efforts on the "mistel" concept a better developed version of the HE-111Z twin fuselage design might have actually worked.

Or 4800 more Bf109s. The Ju290 was twice as heavy as the He177. It was a converted transport. Basically it should have been used for Fritz-X attacks on Soviet industry/electrical infrastructure, rather than wasted in the Atlantic.

was trying to follow along with your scenario, 210 not ready continue producing a workable aircraft.

in the case of HE-177 bomber, never proceed with that just build the prewar designs FW-200 and a bit later JU-290 (not really sure an appropriate number, let's say build enough so the LW and KM aren't fighting over them?)

if Heinkel was determined to build a bomber why not a Z version of HE-111? using twin fuselages. could have even tried 3-engine version with the DB "power system" unit used on HE-177. (thinking about an extreme niche plane at most 100 not the 1,000 HE-177s built OTL)

 

[Deleted member 1487]

was trying to follow along with your scenario, 210 not ready continue producing a workable aircraft.

Sure.

in the case of HE-177 bomber, never proceed with that just build the prewar designs FW-200 and a bit later JU-290 (not really sure an appropriate number, let's say build enough so the LW and KM aren't fighting over them?)

The FW200 had the same payload as the He111 and used a lot more fuel. The Ju290 used a huge amount of fuel and as a result was barely built IOTL (~60 units) and had to carry bombs externally. It was only operational in 1943 and had to use Fritz-X bombs (IIRC 3 at a time). Not that great. It was twice as heavy as the He177 too. The He177 would have been fine if it used four separate engines instead of the coupled ones. That's a different POD. Nothing about the Bf110 would change anything to do with the HE177 mess though. The LW didn't want the FW200 or Ju290 for its operations, both were primarily naval recon aircraft.

if Heinkel was determined to build a bomber why not a Z version of HE-111? using twin fuselages. could have even tried 3-engine version with the DB "power system" unit used on HE-177. (thinking about an extreme niche plane at most 100 not the 1,000 HE-177s built OTL)

It was unstable in flight and didn't do that well. We are getting off the main point that about the BF110 though. Assume no changes with the He177 production, so its still a waste.

 

[Just Leo]

Have you given any thought to potential refinements of the Bf-110 package for improved performance in various tasks? It would seem plausible that various officials are going to notice that the aircraft is an oldish design in need of some improvement.

BTW, I was just doing some fiddling and came across an item about the land-plane conversion of the BV-238. If there was a program that was a waste of resources, they were actually under construction.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Have you given any thought to potential refinements of the Bf-110 package for improved performance in various tasks? It would seem plausible that various officials are going to notice that the aircraft is an oldish design in need of some improvement.

BTW, I was just doing some fiddling and came across an item about the land-plane conversion of the BV-238. If there was a program that was a waste of resources, they were actually under construction.

No one can accuse Nazi Germany of making rational aircraft choices by the end.

How could the Bf-110 really be upgraded or refined beyond the G-series? The prototype H-series doesn't sound like that much of an improvement:
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_bf_110H.html

 

[Just Leo]

I think the problem with improvement was that the wing was too large, and that improvement, and the fitment of DB603A was part of the Me-210/410, not readily adaptable to the 110. It might be easily redrawn, however. Hmm.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I think the problem with improvement was that the wing was too large, and that improvement, and the fitment of DB603A was part of the Me-210/410, not readily adaptable to the 110. It might be easily redrawn, however. Hmm.

I expect a schematic shortly Leo

 

[zoomar]

How about Bf 109Zs

Another option might be the Bf 109Z.

If all the effort spent on all the normal but new-design twin engine heavy fighters meant to replace/suppliment the Bf 110 (Me 210, Ta 154, He 219) had gone instead to a Zwilling 109 based on the Bf 109F or early G, could this have been the high performance well-armed night fighter, bomber Zerstorer, and intruder the Luftwaffe lacked in 1944?

True, the Bf 109Z never flew in prototype form and it would have taken away from the equally valuable regular Bf 109, but it would have the advantage that any gradual improvements made to the regular 109 in terms of engine, weaponry, etc. could be alomst automatically applied to the zwilling. The basic concept was very sound based on the success of the P-82 Twin Mustang.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I don't think the Bf109Z had the fight characteristics to make it worthwhile.
At best it would be a worse P-38.

 

[zoomar]

I don't think the Bf109Z had the fight characteristics to make it worthwhile.
At best it would be a worse P-38.

You are possibly correct, but since it never flew we really don't know what the Bf 109Z's flight characteristics would have been like. To me, many performance estimates for the Bf 109Z seem ratherlow when one considers that the P-82 was significantly faster than the P-51. For what its worth the Bf 109Z is a well-armed scorcher in IL-2 Sturmovik and seems a better performer than the Me 410, Mosquito, or Do 335. Ok, Ok, I know its only a game...

 

[Deleted member 1487]

You are possibly correct, but since it never flew we really don't know what the Bf 109Z's flight characteristics would have been like. To me, many performance estimates for the Bf 109Z seem ratherlow when one considers that the P-82 was significantly faster than the P-51. For what its worth the Bf 109Z is a well-armed scorcher in IL-2 Sturmovik and seems a better performer than the Me 410, Mosquito, or Do 335. Ok, Ok, I know its only a game...

Hard to tell, but there must have been a reason that they didn't pursue it very hard.

 

[Just Leo]

the P-82 was significantly faster than the P-51. .

The P-82 was, in fact, slightly slower than the P-51H on which it was somewhat based. The Lightning model 322 was deemed unsafe at speed without handed propellers. The Twin-Mustang, with handed props, was crap until the handed props were reversed. The DB engines weren't handed at all. The duplicate wheels and underwing radiators mean that there's no additional room for fuel except the spare cockpit, gone with a second crewman.

My drawing was terminated for CG reasons. Best laid plans of mice.

 

[thaddeus]

We are getting off the main point that about the BF110 though.

you're correct.

wondering the effects of more fighters available on Hungary and Romania?

first, more oil from Romania?

any figures on how many aircraft the Germans were promising the two countries?

(never read any mention of Finland buying German aircraft?)

 

[DrakonFin]

(never read any mention of Finland buying German aircraft?)

Finland bought and loaned c. 250 aircraft from Germany in 1941-44. Far and above the most common of them was the Bf 109 G, of which the Finns received 162 in 1943-44, then the Fw 44 trainer (35) and the Ju 88 (24).

The Finns would have liked to have even more of the German fighters, as they IOTL had to fly such planes as the Fiat G.50 and the Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 (even if fitted with better engines) into 1944-45.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

wondering the effects of more fighters available on Hungary and Romania?

first, more oil from Romania?

any figures on how many aircraft the Germans were promising the two countries?

I have no idea. Hungary won't make the Me210C ITTL. I doubt that the numbers we are talking about would find their way into the hands of foreign allies, except perhaps the extra Bf109s. Perhaps some Bf110s for the Romanians to defend Ploesti instead of the LW having to do it.

 

[Catspoke]

So if the net result of this is significantly more aircraft defending Germany, and a few more maybe over the med and eastern front (with numbers starting to ramp up in late 41).

What are the Allies going to do about it?

1) The Allies are going to want the Germans to keep this level of effort up over Germany, keep aircraft and flak there and away from the Soviet Union and the Med.
2) The Allies are still going to want to bomb places in Germany occasionally for morale purposes and its keeps Stalin happy.

So the Allies will still do the random Lubeck and Rostock 1942 type of raid and the occasional small scale Mosquito raids but are going to have to mostly keep away from the Ruhr and other heavily defendend places. Just do enough to keep the Germans to have to defend these places.

There is a net effect of a small increase in German production due to a reduced level of bombing. This increases could be offset by general complacency of a more peaceful Germany, less or later call up of slave laborers from occupied countries etc or by the Allies finding better missions for their craft when not bombing Germany.

Regardless the Mustang is going to over Europe in 1944 and the Allies are going to start bombing effectively (at least by day). The Allies will be less experienced and the Germans will still have more craft to start with (as well as the night bombing still being difficult). The Germans should be able to put up a serious fight longer over Germany, maybe a few months longer, maybe protecting their synthetic oil production a few months longer, making for a more serious fight along the German borders late 1944 - early 1945.

THe Germans should get V2s out a little earlier and in greater numbers, maybe a few of the new submarines get operational sooner. The war lasts a couple of months longer meaning a more intense march, april, may 1945 ME262 jet vs bomber battle. The effect of a weakened bombing offensive as well as more exposure for the German V2s, jets and submarines might change some post war weapons priorities for the Soviets and USA.

 

[Astrodragon]

If the LW get all these extra planes (which is basically the point as I understand it), where are all the extra pilots and fuel coming from??

Logistics is always the 800-pound Gorilla in any war discussion...

 

[Deleted member 1487]

If the LW get all these extra planes (which is basically the point as I understand it), where are all the extra pilots and fuel coming from??

Logistics is always the 800-pound Gorilla in any war discussion...

The fuel isn't that much of a problem as Germany maintained at least several hundred thousand tons of avgas in reserve throughout the war until the last 10 months. So they could dip into that and the twin engine fighters did not have that much of a foot print in terms of numbers we are talking about. As to pilots, many were grounded by lack of flyable aircraft, so the extra numbers would partly be used to keep existing pilots in the air, rather than grounded waiting for spare parts or replacement aircraft. In terms of the night defenses expansion they would probably have to cut training hours in flight schools a bit to get the extra pilots and then do more training in operational training units. That will require more fuel than IOTL, so Germany's avgas stocks are probably lower than IOTL.

Also if they sell some of the extras to Romania they could save pilots and fuel by outsourcing the fighter defenses there to Romania instead of having to dispatch LW units to defend Ploesti. So that is an option too.

 

[Just Leo]

Additional pilots could be gathered by terminating employment of the Dornier Do-17 aircraft, subsequently used as flak-bait airfield decoys, recycled after shredding.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Additional pilots could be gathered by terminating employment of the Dornier Do-17 aircraft, subsequently used as flak-bait airfield decoys, recycled after shredding.

Good point, Do17Zs and Do215s were used as night fighters until 1944. Do17s were used as recon aircraft in Russia, but the Bf110 had about the same range without bombs and was much faster, so would have been a better choice there and more fuel efficient too. Again, same for Do215. Plus IIRC there were a fair few pilots sitting around waiting for the Me210 to get into service.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210

Deliveries to front-line units started in April 1942, and the plane proved to be even less popular with pilots. Production was stopped at the end of the month, by which time only 90 had been delivered. Another 320 partially completed models were placed in storage. In its place, the Bf 110 was put back into production.

Perhaps instead of the Me210C the Hungarians build the Bf110F and G themselves.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

German avgas position during WW2; they had excess stocks for 2400 additional aircraft from 1941-44.