Better USA Intellegence in Korean War

What if the USA had gotten complete as can be intellegence about the coming Chinese intervention in Korea? What if it had been gotten early enough for McCarthur to believe it in time to prepare for it and he did so?
Could the attack have been beaten without nukes? Would the only prudent thing have been to retreat?
 
The prudent thing would've been to have McCarthur stop before reaching the Yalu, essentially leaving a North Korean remnant as a buffer zone with China. Then there would've been no motivation for China to order an invasion.
 
Truman could have called for a halt of the advance south of the Yalu. After all the UN mandate was to expel the invaders from South Korea NOT conquer North Korea and reunify the country. Truman wouldn't even have to acknowledge the possibility of Chinese intervention. Who could just claim to be following the UN mandate and avoiding unnecessary death by calling on the North Koreans to come to the peace table.

Now of course you would have people like McCarthy screaming about letting a communist regime stand and probably calling for Truman's impeachment and claiming he was communist himself. Even worse I can easily see MacArthur try to defy the halt order. At the very least he would go tot eh papers himself and talk about weakness of resolve and lack of courage in the President. At this point in time the US is not used to losing wars or even to limited war for limited gain. The public expects the US can win any fight and achieve whatever they want to. So they will have a hard time understanding why Korea is being left divided and why North Korea is being allowed to remain communist, even if they are forced to yield some territory.
 
I'm with these fellah's put a leash and a muzzle on that titanni horse's ass MaCarthur and stop the Army short of the Yalu river, thus keeping the PRC OUT of the war.
 
What if the USA had gotten complete as can be intellegence about the coming Chinese intervention in Korea? What if it had been gotten early enough for McCarthur to believe it in time to prepare for it and he did so?
Could the attack have been beaten without nukes? Would the only prudent thing have been to retreat?

Getting Dugout Doug to believe anything he didn't want to believe is an ASB POD.
 
The prudent thing would've been to have McCarthur stop before reaching the Yalu, essentially leaving a North Korean remnant as a buffer zone with China. Then there would've been no motivation for China to order an invasion.

I've long thought that myself. If the allied forces had stopped roughly on the 40th parallel and annexed everything south of it to SK, then NK would have been stripped of most of it's population and arable land. What was left of it would have been cold, miserable, hungry, and absolutely reliant on aid from China and the USSR....
 
MacArthur is likely to discount any intelligence that contradicts his thoughts. The only thing I can see is that the Pentagon reads those same reports and instructs Mac to make immediate plans. But to be honest, Mac would probably ignore them. I don't see it preventing the disaster, but it may mean he'll be removed from command earlier after the attack happens and at less controversy.

Furthermore, I don't think Truman can politically not advance to the Yalu. It would make him look weak on Communism in US domestic politics. If he says he must stop lest the Chinese Communists attack UN forces, he'll look like a fool. No one believes that China would be a threat to the US Army at that time. The actual success of PRC forces was very sobering.

To prevent disaster in north Korea, there are only two options.

1) Secret negotiations with the PRC that UN forces will not cross the Yalu, and that all forces - except for Korean troops - will withdraw south of the 38th parallel after North Korea is defeated, and that no hostile action will be taken against the PRC.

2) MacArthur is somehow not the commander after the advance to the Yalu is made. That person could take the actions MacArthur should have, but didn't.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
What if the USA had gotten complete as can be intellegence about the coming Chinese intervention in Korea? What if it had been gotten early enough for McCarthur to believe it in time to prepare for it and he did so?
Could the attack have been beaten without nukes? Would the only prudent thing have been to retreat?
The first thing you would have to do is to ignore the MacArthur detractors on this board. When any of them have any of the valor decorations that MacArthur had from just WWI, their input might have merit.

--Not to say that Mac didn't have his faults.

Second thing is to replace Mac's G-2, Charles Willoughby with somebody who doesn't have a political agenda and a pathological worship of and need to please his theatre commander.
 
I've long thought that myself. If the allied forces had stopped roughly on the 40th parallel and annexed everything south of it to SK, then NK would have been stripped of most of it's population and arable land. What was left of it would have been cold, miserable, hungry, and absolutely reliant on aid from China and the USSR....


True. Hold a line starting just north of P'yongyang and going east to north of Wonsan. Should do it.
 
The prudent thing would've been to have McCarthur stop before reaching the Yalu, essentially leaving a North Korean remnant as a buffer zone with China. Then there would've been no motivation for China to order an invasion.


I've heard that China was coming in to try to retake South Korea even if the UN forces stopped at the 38th paralell.
 
The first thing you would have to do is to ignore the MacArthur detractors on this board. When any of them have any of the valor decorations that MacArthur had from just WWI, their input might have merit.

--Not to say that Mac didn't have his faults.

Second thing is to replace Mac's G-2, Charles Willoughby with somebody who doesn't have a political agenda and a pathological worship of and need to please his theatre commander.

Which requires a complete personality transplant on the part of Dugout Doug. You're asking for someone who knew about the *first* Chinese offensive that caved in an entire ROK division to decide that the Chinese are massing for a very much larger second offensive. A competent tactician would have both done this and not launched a divergent offensive with a division of command, but MacArthur was anything but a competent tactician. As Korea and most of his WWII experience proved over and over and over and over again.
 
Which requires a complete personality transplant on the part of Dugout Doug. You're asking for someone who knew about the *first* Chinese offensive that caved in an entire ROK division to decide that the Chinese are massing for a very much larger second offensive. A competent tactician would have both done this and not launched a divergent offensive with a division of command, but MacArthur was anything but a competent tactician. As Korea and most of his WWII experience proved over and over and over and over again.
Speaking of Macandcheeseball's WW1 Decorations, how are any of them relevent to fighting a highly mobile mechanised war such as World War Two or Korea when they were earned fighting a 19th century war with 20th century weapons.

General Macandcheese screwed the Pootch Ealy and Often in both World War Two and Korea and in each case never failed to blamed his men for every one of his own screw-ups.
 
Speaking of Macandcheeseball's WW1 Decorations, how are any of them relevent to fighting a highly mobile mechanised war such as World War Two or Korea when they were earned fighting a 19th century war with 20th century weapons.

General Macandcheese screwed the Pootch Ealy and Often in both World War Two and Korea and in each case never failed to blamed his men for every one of his own screw-ups.

The moreso since MacArthur was not IIRC in charge of an army all by himself at that point but under someone else's command. It's like using Semyon Budenny's WWI heroism to negate his role in the Battle of Kiev. MacArthur was no Fredendall but he was not any more a good general for not being a Fredendall, either.
 
The moreso since MacArthur was not IIRC in charge of an army all by himself at that point but under someone else's command. It's like using Semyon Budenny's WWI heroism to negate his role in the Battle of Kiev. MacArthur was no Fredendall but he was not any more a good general for not being a Fredendall, either.
Real officers never blame their men for military setbacks and defeats.

Real officers blame themselves for military setbacks and they credit their men with their victories.

Only martinets and popinjays do the former, real officers always do the latter.
 
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