Better strategy against France in 1940.

Don Grey

Banned
Although I don't think the battle could've gone better, is there a possibility that:

1. De Gaulle is captured before fleeing, perhaps therefore reducing the Free French significantly or
2. Terms offered to the French are noticably better, such that Alt-Vichy can either be convinced to join the Axis proper, or that at least, they put up more of a resistance in 1942 against the US invasion of North Africa?

Though i highly doubt frence with join the axis. I mean the guy just handed your ass on a plate and humilated you how could the french army and people fight side by side with the germans?

Though i would realy like to see this happen just because its so intresting and what the french military could do on the axis side. But if they would just send some token regiments then its not worth it.
 
No-one, not even the British, imagined something like the Dunkirk evacuation taking place. Dunkirk was a small Belgian port of no military significance, Britain’s supplies came from ports south of the Seine and were cut off by the German advance just as French supply routes were.

No, what I imagine is something similar along the lines of what the German's had desired to do during the Ardennes Offensive. Two thrusts would be made, one through the Netherlands to Rotterdam and then along the coast, and the other through Southern Belgium and Luxembourg around and to Calais. These two force would then meet up along the coast, thus trapping what should be a large Allied force deployed to defend Belgium in a pocket. Paratroopers would be used to close the pocket faster if need be.
 
Or spare itself the humilation by crossing the Rhine on 9/4/39 and crush the German forces there (which were very weak, especially in armor and air) like a wayward beetle and reach Berlin before the Heer could do a damned thing about it.

Ah, now we're talking! All we need to make this happen is a new, active, leader for France.

Hmm. A new General Staff would be a good idea, too.

And if we really want them to make it to Berlin, we need to do something about their C&C systems...

...Overcoming the general feeling of 'malaise' in the public would be a good idea too...
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
Or spare itself the humilation by crossing the Rhine on 9/4/39 and crush the German forces there (which were very weak, especially in armor and air) like a wayward beetle and reach Berlin before the Heer could do a damned thing about it.

But they were not at war in April?
 
Or spare itself the humilation by crossing the Rhine on 9/4/39 and crush the German forces there (which were very weak, especially in armor and air) like a wayward beetle and reach Berlin before the Heer could do a damned thing about it.

Thats a bit unrealistic Calbear,... The west wall had thousands of bombproof blockhouses and was covered by tremendous minefields... you cant assault that kind of fortress line 3 days after DOW. The French need a period of time to mobilize, concentrate heavy artillery and airpower and work out a plan of attack, plus it would be insane not to give the selected infantry formations some days of practice in trench/fortress fighting so that they are actually prepared for their mission

A headlong assault into the west wall without sufficient preperation would be asking for a repeat of the battle of the frontiers or the nivelle offensive

And if they take the several weeks required to coil up for the offensive, good German formations would then be able to return from Poland

There was one sortie into the west wall during case white by a couple tank battalions and a north african division... they ran into a minefield, got hung up took losses and realized they wheren't going to crack the line without a big attack
 
Thats a bit unrealistic Calbear,... The west wall had thousands of bombproof blockhouses and was covered by tremendous minefields... you cant assault that kind of fortress line 3 days after DOW. The French need a period of time to mobilize, concentrate heavy artillery and airpower and work out a plan of attack, plus it would be insane not to give the selected infantry formations some days of practice in trench/fortress fighting so that they are actually prepared for their mission

A headlong assault into the west wall without sufficient preperation would be asking for a repeat of the battle of the frontiers or the nivelle offensive

And if they take the several weeks required to coil up for the offensive, good German formations would then be able to return from Poland

There was one sortie into the west wall during case white by a couple tank battalions and a north african division... they ran into a minefield, got hung up took losses and realized they wheren't going to crack the line without a big attack

Except France had 'guaranteed' they would attack Germany if Germany attacked Poland. They had plenty to time to come up with plans and train their troops before the war started. Of course, that would have required a sane general staff...
 
Except France had 'guaranteed' they would attack Germany if Germany attacked Poland. They had plenty to time to come up with plans and train their troops before the war started. Of course, that would have required a sane general staff...

even if they had a plan worked out, and had premeptively trained their infantry for fortress assaults a few months before case white, there would still be a necessary period of time of mobilization and concentration

even still... the Germans had 42 divisions (of varying quality for sure) in the west wall equipped with automatic weapons, anti tank guns and the west wall had organic artillery to defend itself... not an easy nut to crack... ww2 fortress assaults where generally bloodbaths (Winter War, Kursk, Casino, Metz etc)... their odds of breaking through in any meaningful way (especially without the support of thousands of heavy bombing sorties to interdict supply chains) before the Germans can peal off divisions from Poland to stiffen the West Wall is awful slim
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
True, but the French made a reasonable advance into the Saar right through one of the heavily mined zones.

As far as insane, how could it turn out worse than the debacle of OTL?

Thats a bit unrealistic Calbear,... The west wall had thousands of bombproof blockhouses and was covered by tremendous minefields... you cant assault that kind of fortress line 3 days after DOW. The French need a period of time to mobilize, concentrate heavy artillery and airpower and work out a plan of attack, plus it would be insane not to give the selected infantry formations some days of practice in trench/fortress fighting so that they are actually prepared for their mission

A headlong assault into the west wall without sufficient preperation would be asking for a repeat of the battle of the frontiers or the nivelle offensive

And if they take the several weeks required to coil up for the offensive, good German formations would then be able to return from Poland

There was one sortie into the west wall during case white by a couple tank battalions and a north african division... they ran into a minefield, got hung up took losses and realized they wheren't going to crack the line without a big attack
 
True, but the French made a reasonable advance into the Saar right through one of the heavily mined zones.

As far as insane, how could it turn out worse than the debacle of OTL?

France suffered around 100k dead in 6 weeks of fighting with the Germans just bypassing them and very few sloberknockers (Gembloux and Stonne for sure)

But if you look at what they could have suffered in a headlong assault into the teeth of the west wall, it could have been a lot worse

Better for them to have stood pat, put all their mobile divisions in reserve and when the Germans cross into FRENCH territory, concentrate and punch them in the mouth
 
even if they had a plan worked out, and had premeptively trained their infantry for fortress assaults a few months before case white, there would still be a necessary period of time of mobilization and concentration

even still... the Germans had 42 divisions (of varying quality for sure) in the west wall equipped with automatic weapons, anti tank guns and the west wall had organic artillery to defend itself... not an easy nut to crack... ww2 fortress assaults where generally bloodbaths (Winter War, Kursk, Casino, Metz etc)... their odds of breaking through in any meaningful way (especially without the support of thousands of heavy bombing sorties to interdict supply chains) before the Germans can peal off divisions from Poland to stiffen the West Wall is awful slim

Oh, they'd have suffered, and they couldn't have kicked off the same day as the DOW for sure, but that was what they'd promised to do.

And for sure, the BEST thing to do would have been to concentrate a mobile reserve of armor and motorized infantry... except that ran exactly counter to French pre-war doctrine.

As the Avalon Hill "France 1940" game said (paraphrase from memory) 'You can execute the historical Allied plan if you want to loose quickly.'
 
Or spare itself the humilation by crossing the Rhine on 9/4/39 and crush the German forces there (which were very weak, especially in armor and air) like a wayward beetle and reach Berlin before the Heer could do a damned thing about it.


These are the FRENCH we're talking about.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
These are the FRENCH we're talking about.

True. You get both an Out Of Cheese AND an Out Of Monkeys error....:D

I know you are goofing around, but the French fought themselves white in the First War and spent themselves into the poorhouse getting ready for the Second one.

The just made God Awful choices in their High Command and were even more casualty adverse that they had believed.
 
I know you are goofing around, but the French fought themselves white in the First War and spent themselves into the poorhouse getting ready for the Second one.

The just made God Awful choices in their High Command and were even more casualty adverse that they had believed.

They did, and unfortunately the main effect was a lousy High Command - I wonder how better they would have been if many promising officers hadn't been killed, or they just decided to enforce an age limit on their senior officers...
The casualty issue was again the fault of the senior officers.

Come to think of it, the best thing for France (and the French PBI) would be for the Chateau holding all the French commanders to collapse some time around 1938...
 

Cook

Banned
2. Terms offered to the French are noticably better, such that Alt-Vichy can either be convinced to join the Axis proper, or that at least, they put up more of a resistance in 1942 against the US invasion of North Africa?
Though i highly doubt frence with join the axis. I mean the guy just handed your ass on a plate and humilated you how could the french army and people fight side by side with the germans?
Though i would realy like to see this happen just because its so intresting and what the french military could do on the axis side. But if they would just send some token regiments then its not worth it.

I feel the need to point out that Vichy France was a de-facto Ally of Nazi Germany and that Britain and Vichy France fought an undeclared war following the British attacks on the French fleet at Oran.

On September 1940 a French cruiser squadron ran the straits of Gibraltar and wreaked havoc on the Anglo-Free French that attempted to seize Dakar in West Africa.

In Vichy, Admiral Darlan told naval officers that ‘a state of war exists with Britain’.

Vichy French Aircraft attacked Gibraltar repeatedly from bases in French North Africa. In September 1940 they gave Force H what Admiral Summerville described as ‘an absolute plastering’.

In May 1941 Darlan visited Hitler at Berchtesgaden to seal an agreement to provide aid to a pro-Nazi revolt in Iraq. That was not passive acquiescence; it was active collaboration. German aircraft began landing in Vichy controlled Syria before Darlan left Berchtesgaden.

This prompted the Allied invasion of Syria and Lebanon in June 1941 lead by the 7th Australian Division.

In May 1942 the British invaded Vichy Madagascar to prevent the Vichy administration from permitting the Japanese to use it as a submarine base. Fighting there did not cease until November 1942.

When the Allies landed in North Africa in November 1942 in operation Torch they had to fight their way ashore against Vichy French defenders.
 
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