Better Axis Espionage and Intelligence

Like the thread suggests, what would the axis forces have done with more effective intelligence gathering capabilities than they possessed OTL?
Would this scenario jeopardize allied otl successes in cracking axis codes, and human intelligence efforts?

What butterflies could this generate over the 2nd world war if it occurs?
Could it have turned the tide in many key battles?

I am not expecting for them to win the war decisively like the allies. They did not have the resources and manpower to keep up with the war.
In my opinion, it might have just prolonged the conflict and generate more casualties.


Thank you. With much respect.
 
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The problem was less that Axis intelligence was bad, and more that it's opponents were better. The Soviets had since the 30s heavily inftrated Axis governments, with agents who were unlikely to be rooted out. The Soviet Union's repression and control apparatus makes Nazi Germany's seem like that of a third world dictatorship. Stalinist Soviet society was pervaded at every level by state security, informers, political officers, etc. Evety single important German spun in the Soviet Union was killed or turned. The NKVD was the single most repressive and pervasive security organ in history.

The above only refers to strategic deception and counterintelligence. "Maskirovka", the Societ term for deception, was integral to the Soviet war effort at all levels. They could hide the formation, deployment, and regroupment of armies, create complex deception plans, and utterly baffle German recon and planning efforts.
 
Italian intelligence was considered to be better than Nazi intelligence.

Now that shows just how bad Nazi intelligence was.
 
If the nazi government had a better intellegence service they would not have been nazis.

1. Centralized oversight of all the various services & branches. Hitlers 'management by divisive competition' left the Germans without any advantages of central coordination. The Allie worked out far better coordination and unified planning, despite far worse divisions and starting points.

2. The Canaris question. Was Adm Canaris a traitor from 1940? If he was not then he & his staff showed some singular failures in not recognizing at least part of the the effect of the Brit Double Cross operation.

3. Better attention to the entire spectrum of radio signal warfare. Examples of the US SIGABA and British Typex encryption equipment were captured, but a effective organization for attacking these systems was not in place. A more effective & robust signals intellegence organization would likely have led to a better understanding of the Enigma machines vulnerability. Those responsible for the Enigma machines development and production did not put the same effort into evaluating it as the Poles. That led to a overestimation of the difficulty of penetrating it and overconfidence.

The Germans were not technically incompetent in all this. One group suceeded in penetrating the US AT3 telephone signal scrambler system. For nearly three years they were able to record the conversations of high level officials between London and Washington. But, like every other aspect of the war spectacular tactical victories did not lead to winning campaigns.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
If Heydrich Survived, I think he could have done some Intelligence centralization. When the Abwehr comes under command of the SS and what not.
 
If Heydrich Survived, I think he could have done some Intelligence centralization. When the Abwehr comes under command of the SS and what not.
Well, his intelligence gathering was very week. Look what this undercover Czech and Slovak heroes managed.;)
 
The NKVD was the single most repressive and pervasive security organ in history.

I agree it was the most pervasive at the time but I think the post war Stasi had the most pervasive ever. The Stasi had one informer per 6.5 people, though I do agree it was a lot less violent than the NKVD.
 

Kongzilla

Banned
Well, his intelligence gathering was very week. Look what this undercover Czech and Slovak heroes managed.;)

They were slowly disintegrating. That's why they launched the assaination attempt. And he won't be gathering the intelligence himself, he would have subordinates good at the Job, he was a pragmatist and would use people that can do their job.
 
German spies were always easy to catch. That funny mustache, clicking their heels, and they can't pronounce "th". "Is zis zee way to the Zupermarine verks?"
 
The problem was less that Axis intelligence was bad, and more that it's opponents were better. The Soviets had since the 30s heavily inftrated Axis governments, with agents who were unlikely to be rooted out. The Soviet Union's repression and control apparatus makes Nazi Germany's seem like that of a third world dictatorship. Stalinist Soviet society was pervaded at every level by state security, informers, political officers, etc. Evety single important German spun in the Soviet Union was killed or turned. The NKVD was the single most repressive and pervasive security organ in history.

The above only refers to strategic deception and counterintelligence. "Maskirovka", the Societ term for deception, was integral to the Soviet war effort at all levels. They could hide the formation, deployment, and regroupment of armies, create complex deception plans, and utterly baffle German recon and planning efforts.

Stalin’s Secret War - Soviet Counterintelligence against the Nazis, 1941–1945
 
Italian intelligence was considered to be better than Nazi intelligence.

Now that shows just how bad Nazi intelligence was.

I simply do not understand this kind of rage against anything italian... Suprise! Italians are not inherently inferior at everything.

And for the matter of fact, german intelligence were not bad at all. Contrary to that, they achived some remerkable feats troughout the war. Their main problem was the usage of the gathered infromation, an not even in the analysing part (despite the fractured nature of their services), but in the decision part.
 
As bad as anything else is the fact that the concepts of 'Nazi' and 'spy' are actually contradictory, the more you are of one, the less you are of the other, because doing things like saying "heil Hitler" tend to show you up real quickly.
 
I simply do not understand this kind of rage against anything italian... Suprise! Italians are not inherently inferior at everything.

The Italians are not inferior at all, this is the people who produced Da Vinci, Palladio, Machiavelli, Garibaldi etc. However the Italian Fascists were spectacularly useless, so while it's not a surprise that generic Italians managed to have a better Intelligence service than generic Germans it is a surprise that the Italian Fascists managed.
 
I simply do not understand this kind of rage against anything italian... Suprise! Italians are not inherently inferior at everything.

And for the matter of fact, german intelligence were not bad at all. Contrary to that, they achived some remerkable feats troughout the war. Their main problem was the usage of the gathered infromation, an not even in the analysing part (despite the fractured nature of their services), but in the decision part.

Like what? Soviets repeatedly outtricked them, as did British.

And that doesn't include the fact that their domestic services failed to identify either July bomb plot, "Zossen conspiracy" of 1938 or any other such plans
 

sharlin

Banned
And their agent's were all caught and I think it was something like 99% of them were 'turned' to be double agents. Please tell us what feats of military esponage the Germans pulled off in WW2. I'll be amazed if it equals something like Mincemeat, the deception plan for the Normandy landings (which the german intelligence service bought whole heartedly) or the Soviet bait and switches at a front level.
 
And their agent's were all caught and I think it was something like 99% of them were 'turned' to be double agents. Please tell us what feats of military esponage the Germans pulled off in WW2. I'll be amazed if it equals something like Mincemeat, the deception plan for the Normandy landings (which the german intelligence service bought whole heartedly) or the Soviet bait and switches at a front level.

Mincemeat was deception in MTO, to convince Axis Wallies plan to invade Sardinia, not Sicily. ;)
 
To be fair on the failure of German strategic intelligence against the Soviet Union, everyone's strategic intel on the Soviets was pretty crap. Stalin's paranoia, purges, and general mass terror may have had a lot of negative consequences but it did succeed in the near-total eradication of whatever foreign spies there were inside the Soviet Union.

Of course, this does not excuse the fact that German general strategic intelligence was, on average, complete shit.

And their agent's were all caught and I think it was something like 99% of them were 'turned' to be double agents.

From what I have heard, the figure is probably 100%.

Please tell us what feats of military esponage the Germans pulled off in WW2.
The Germans did manage too score a few successes in the realm of code-breaking, but these were exceptions rather then the rule and were ultimately nullified by changes in Allied encryption.

Mincemeat was deception in MTO, to convince Axis Wallies plan to invade Sardinia, not Sicily. ;)

He probably got it confused with Operation Fortitude, although most people also forget that Fortitude was merely one part of the even bigger deception effort that was Operation Bodyguard.
 
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And their agent's were all caught and I think it was something like 99% of them were 'turned' to be double agents. Please tell us what feats of military esponage the Germans pulled off in WW2. I'll be amazed if it equals something like Mincemeat, the deception plan for the Normandy landings (which the german intelligence service bought whole heartedly) or the Soviet bait and switches at a front level.

Equals mincemeat? (Lets put away the Corsica thing)
Well... hmmm.. how abou the german maskirovka before fall blau? Stalin and everyone else were pretty convinced, that they try Moscow again.


And i think that most of the people put too much weight on HUMINT, an area where the germans had severe shortcomings, but in the ELINT/SIGNINT branch, they were pretty strong.
 
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