Best way to fight the Mongols with Medieval European technology

[Onyx]

They chased Bela from town to town with little opposition for a long time (but failed to catch him) and they also took and burned Zagreb. They didn't have enough men to storm Klis or other Dalmatian towns and definitely not the islands, which is where Bela hid out until they left. But in general I think their forces were just too small by '42 so they met with lots of difficulties in the Balkans (Bulgaria as well as Croatia) where ambushes could be effective now and then.

I don't think it's a good general recipe, just somewhat effective for that very specific situation where there's few of them.

Mongols also invaded Serbia, but I think it was more of a raid than invasion, but they were defeated. However Stefan II Milutin gave Khan Nogai his son as a hostage for a while so Serbia can avoid anymore raids from the Mongols when Nogai threatened to invade again

In saying, the Balkans are going to be hard for the Mongols considering the geography

 

[jkay]

Give it up and prepare to die.... Seriously, their whole advantage was taking advantage of medieval tech deficits. It only let them build as big an empire far bigger than any before.

They had archers as as fast as the famous longbowmen whom beat up France thoroughly.
They fired armor-piercing arrows, so armor wasn't much help.
Both the Mongols and their scouts were faster than anybody else because they had no armor and swapped mounts alot. That meant they could, and often choose when and where to fight.
They had masses of captured slaves to run artillery and other high tech.

Hungary survived from great turf and lotsa luck. It helped to have few plains where the Mongols couldj't ride, and lots of high hills / mountainss good for building hard to take strongholds. Also that was a front with smallish army; they didn't care much about Eastern Europe. Too far from HQ, I guess. They also had luck that that they couldn't finish the job before General Winter showed. Their commander probably wasn't the best, either.

So I guess you need a recipe like Hungary. Bad turf, a small Mongol army, and luck.

 

[Dave Howery]

my only idea is something that will break up the Mongol units; dense woods, 'badlands' with gullies, hills, and rocks, etc. Then, you'd have to have some really well trained troops fighting more like Native Americans in the eastern woods than the solid ranks of European armies... 'fire and move', flit from tree to rock, gang up on isolated Mongol units, etc. And even then, I'm not sure it'd work...

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Actually I'd be very surprised if the Mongols could do well fighting the Europeans on the large scale. Much of Western Europe is densely wooded (Germany is a nightmare for them on so many levels) and the castles sticking out like pins everywhere are going to be a major impediment to their general advance.

With no really good places to have the large scale maneuver warfare, and the many urban and rural areas they will go through, there are going to be some huge problems.

Particularly if they somehow managed to get trapped by a force of heavy cavalry, or even ambushed by infantry in a region they can't maneuver. If they can't run they end up slaughtered in close quarters battle with their opponents. They may be able to cut their way out but I doubt it.

That and I sincerely doubt they could take every castle they came across. They simply couldn't spread their forces out far enough to hit every castle as well as mass enough strength to hit the major European cities.

It just becomes a series of poor situations for them and even one battle where things don't go their way could be devastating.

I have no doubt they would win many initial victories, but in the long run occupation (even forcing tribute on Western Europe) is virtually impossible.

 

[Elfwine]

Actually I'd be very surprised if the Mongols could do well fighting the Europeans on the large scale. Much of Western Europe is densely wooded (Germany is a nightmare for them on so many levels) and the castles sticking out like pins everywhere are going to be a major impediment to their general advance.

With no really good places to have the large scale maneuver warfare, and the many urban and rural areas they will go through, there are going to be some huge problems.

Particularly if they somehow managed to get trapped by a force of heavy cavalry, or even ambushed by infantry in a region they can't maneuver. If they can't run they end up slaughtered in close quarters battle with their opponents. They may be able to cut their way out but I doubt it.

That and I sincerely doubt they could take every castle they came across. They simply couldn't spread their forces out far enough to hit every castle as well as mass enough strength to hit the major European cities.

It just becomes a series of poor situations for them and even one battle where things don't go their way could be devastating.

I have no doubt they would win many initial victories, but in the long run occupation (even forcing tribute on Western Europe) is virtually impossible.

They handled Song China, which is a lot more problematic than Europe on just about every level here.

 

[RGB]

Actually I'd be very surprised if the Mongols could do well fighting the Europeans on the large scale. Much of Western Europe is densely wooded (Germany is a nightmare for them on so many levels) and the castles sticking out like pins everywhere are going to be a major impediment to their general advance.

Surely not more wooded than Zalesye? Swampy I can understand, but wooded? Hardly stopped them before.

It just becomes a series of poor situations for them and even one battle where things don't go their way could be devastating.

That I can agree with, arguably they already got to that point after Legnica.

Not enough Mongols

 

[Vingilótë]

Give it up and prepare to die.... Seriously, their whole advantage was taking advantage of medieval tech deficits. It only let them build as big an empire far bigger than any before.

They had archers as as fast as the famous longbowmen whom beat up France thoroughly.
They fired armor-piercing arrows, so armor wasn't much help.
Both the Mongols and their scouts were faster than anybody else because they had no armor and swapped mounts alot. That meant they could, and often choose when and where to fight.
They had masses of captured slaves to run artillery and other high tech.

Hungary survived from great turf and lotsa luck. It helped to have few plains where the Mongols couldj't ride, and lots of high hills / mountainss good for building hard to take strongholds. Also that was a front with smallish army; they didn't care much about Eastern Europe. Too far from HQ, I guess. They also had luck that that they couldn't finish the job before General Winter showed. Their commander probably wasn't the best, either.

So I guess you need a recipe like Hungary. Bad turf, a small Mongol army, and luck.

Tech deficits is too simple an analysis, as Elfwine mentioned with Song China. The Mongols' real advantage was their extremely high-quality training and discipline, and their 19th century level of military organization.

Of course, with these two combined, you might as well say "They were the same, except where the Mongols were superior in every respect."

 

[The Sandman]

The Mongols need somewhere nearby with a high population that they can seize control of without having to raze everything to the ground. Because it seems to me that that was ultimately their big advantage in China: they pretty much took over the Jin state and then used its manpower and industry to crush the Song.

So best bet, I think, is going to be Byzantium. Probably in some sort of deal where the ERE hires them to get rid of the Latins and doesn't realize how bad of an idea that was until they realize that the Eastern Roman Empire just became the Western Mongol Empire.

 

[Elfwine]

The Mongols need somewhere nearby with a high population that they can seize control of without having to raze everything to the ground. Because it seems to me that that was ultimately their big advantage in China: they pretty much took over the Jin state and then used its manpower and industry to crush the Song.

So best bet, I think, is going to be Byzantium. Probably in some sort of deal where the ERE hires them to get rid of the Latins and doesn't realize how bad of an idea that was until they realize that the Eastern Roman Empire just became the Western Mongol Empire.

Byzantium doesn't really have all that high a population at this point, and an alt-timeline Byzantium that's stronger isn't going to be worried about getting rid of the Latins enough to do something like that.

 

[Onyx]

Byzantium doesn't really have all that high a population at this point, and an alt-timeline Byzantium that's stronger isn't going to be worried about getting rid of the Latins enough to do something like that.

I honestly think someone should do a story of a Byzantium that survived 1204 and the Mongols invade the Empire do a siege on Constantinople

A man can dream

 

[Bee]

It helped to have few plains where the Mongols couldj't ride ...

Why not? I would have thought that plains constituted very favorable terrain for the Mongols.

After winning at Mohi, the Hungarians held the Mongols up at the Danube (until it froze over) (General Winter serves both sides).

 

[Elfwine]

I honestly think someone should do a story of a Byzantium that survived 1204 and the Mongols invade the Empire do a siege on Constantinople

A man can dream

Isaac's Empire? Of course, it doesn't have OTL's 1204.

Don't think the Mongols ever siege Constantinople in Age of Miracles.