Best predreadnought for Craddock?

MatthewB

Banned
A faster predreadnought may have seen Craddock waiting at Stanley for its arrival, and thus with Cape Horn blocked, Von Spee makes his escape into the Pacific and likely interns his fleet elsewhere.
 

CalBear

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Fastest British dreadnought was the QE class, 25 knots vs. S&G at 20-22 knots. A single QE class ship alone at Coronel would be like HMS Warspite at Narvik, with Von Spee’s entire fleet quickly sinking. His only hope would be to rush his faster protected cruisers for a torpedo strike.

But that’s not really relevant, as we’re sending a predreadnought.
The QE's were also not completed yet.
 
If the RN had spared either a Nelson or a King George then I doubt Spee would have fought, he'd have disengaged. Cradoc's ships were in as poor a state as the Canopus, crewed by old reservists or very young boys. Both Monmouth and Good Hope were old ships, both about 14 - 15 years old (same age as Canopus) and even if the Canopus had been there, the Monmouth and Good Hope were probably too slow to force an engagement if the Germans had chose to disengage. And with the risk of getting slapped by a 12-inch gun, they'd probably have not engaged. The Canopus was a guard dog and her chain was her slow speed, but Spee wouldn't have wanted to get close out of fear of her guns. Yes the (old) Twins out ranged her, but at that range they'd have issues getting through her armour. Which means getting close, and risking a 350lb AP bitchslap.

If the RN really wanted to fight then they'd have sent more ACRs. The best ACR's the RN had though were busy in the Med or as part of the Grand Fleet and were more valuable than the King Edwards, so really the 'best' candidate would have been a King Edward or two. Sure you can't catch spee, but if he blunders into you then he could be in trouble.
 
Reciprocating engines also really don't like operating at or near full power for long periods of time, whereas turbines can sustain high speeds as long as there is enough steam and lubrication.
Those on ocean liners did - but they weren't constrained by the need to operate under armour, which limited the height/length of the piston strokes. The units on Titanic, for example, could utilise a great deal more space, denied to warships whose engines had to utilise a more frantic tempo to produce the desired SHP.
 

CalBear

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If the RN had spared either a Nelson or a King George then I doubt Spee would have fought, he'd have disengaged. Cradoc's ships were in as poor a state as the Canopus, crewed by old reservists or very young boys. Both Monmouth and Good Hope were old ships, both about 14 - 15 years old (same age as Canopus) and even if the Canopus had been there, the Monmouth and Good Hope were probably too slow to force an engagement if the Germans had chose to disengage. And with the risk of getting slapped by a 12-inch gun, they'd probably have not engaged. The Canopus was a guard dog and her chain was her slow speed, but Spee wouldn't have wanted to get close out of fear of her guns. Yes the (old) Twins out ranged her, but at that range they'd have issues getting through her armour. Which means getting close, and risking a 350lb AP bitchslap.

If the RN really wanted to fight then they'd have sent more ACRs. The best ACR's the RN had though were busy in the Med or as part of the Grand Fleet and were more valuable than the King Edwards, so really the 'best' candidate would have been a King Edward or two. Sure you can't catch spee, but if he blunders into you then he could be in trouble.
Going to send anything by a couple BC then the best idea is to send the Dreadnought herself. She had started the whole new idea, but by fall of 1914 she was something of an old lady, albeit one with a big 'ol cane to deal with any whippersnappers who came along. She was not as fast as the Scharnhort and the rest of Spee's squadron, if they were fresh from the yard, but it had been a long time since the German ships had had a hull scrapping, so 21 knots would manage quite nicely.
 
Ironically as new managing units like Spee's was Canopus' designed job. But that is what 20 years of development will do to you.

If I had to pick a pre-dreadnaught Canopus rates surprisingly highly. That said it is not a job for a pre-dreadnaught.
 
What do you actually need to win?

Spee has 2 armoured cruisers and 3 light cruisers

S&G are the main issue have 22Kn (but probably less)
two x 8 × 21 cm (8.3 in) guns, 6 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns

Dresden, Nürnberg and Leipzig are much weaker even if slightly faster 24,22,23Kn
each with 10 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/40 guns

Against,

2 armoured cruisers,
HMS Good Hope, 2 × single 9.2 in (234 mm) guns & 16 × single 6 in (152 mm) guns (weaker and older than S&G)
HMS Monmouth, 2 × twin, 10 × single BL 6-inch Mk VII guns (hopeless to S&G but should match off a CL)

1 light cruiser, HMS Glasgow 2x6" and 10x4" stronger and faster than any other CL

1 auxiliary cruiser, Lets forget that......

But how much do we need to help them before its actually decisive? I think we really only need say 3 more old AC
Cressy, Hogue and Abouki
Each with 2 × single BL 9.2-inch (234-mm) Mk X guns, 12 × single BL 6-inch (152-mm) Mk VII guns and 21Kn

This would give two each against S&G (4x 9.2" v 6x 8.3" but massively more 6") and leave Monmouth and Glasgow to fight the three CLs I think it should be an RN victory or at least a destructive draw for both sides?

(But if I was 1st Sea Lord I would add a Warrior or Minotaur to make sure!)
 

Coulsdon Eagle

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What do you actually need to win?

Spee has 2 armoured cruisers and 3 light cruisers

S&G are the main issue have 22Kn (but probably less)
two x 8 × 21 cm (8.3 in) guns, 6 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns

Dresden, Nürnberg and Leipzig are much weaker even if slightly faster 24,22,23Kn
each with 10 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/40 guns

Against,

2 armoured cruisers,
HMS Good Hope, 2 × single 9.2 in (234 mm) guns & 16 × single 6 in (152 mm) guns (weaker and older than S&G)
HMS Monmouth, 2 × twin, 10 × single BL 6-inch Mk VII guns (hopeless to S&G but should match off a CL)

1 light cruiser, HMS Glasgow 2x6" and 10x4" stronger and faster than any other CL

1 auxiliary cruiser, Lets forget that......

But how much do we need to help them before its actually decisive? I think we really only need say 3 more old AC

Each with 2 × single BL 9.2-inch (234-mm) Mk X guns, 12 × single BL 6-inch (152-mm) Mk VII guns and 21Kn

This would give two each against S&G (4x 9.2" v 6x 8.3" but massively more 6") and leave Monmouth and Glasgow to fight the three CLs I think it should be an RN victory or at least a destructive draw for both sides?

(But if I was 1st Sea Lord I would add a Warrior or Minotaur to make sure!)

The sea state at Coronel left the Good Hope & Monmouth unable to use their secondary batteries mounted in casemates. The same would apply to the Bacchantes. And I believe the German 8.3" had longer range than the British 9.2" (certainly the later model 9.2" is consistently described by one historian as "crapulent").
 
Just send Defence. The last of the British Armoured Cruisers. Churchill flip flopped on sending her, keeping her in the Med, then sending her again. Craddock was not advised of the delay and was expecting her. Defence out matched Spee’s ships to the same extent that they out matched Craddocks ships. Also the Pre Dread he had was probably good enough. There are 2 things though. Both fleets believed that they were engaging only a single ship on the ‘day’. Also Churchill’s orders to Craddock were too ambiguous. Craddocks understanding of the orders was different to Churchill’s intent.
 
S&G are the main issue have 22Kn (but probably less)
two x 8 × 21 cm (8.3 in) guns, 6 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns
They actually had 8 x 21cm guns each - two each side in single turrets. They're the midships mounts at main deck level.

Scharnhorst-2000x889.jpg
 
I think Craddock, who was described as "constitutionally incapable of refusing combat" or words to that effect, would leave behind any ship that slowed him down. Swiftsure made 20 knots on trials, perhaps it could again, if the crew was prepared to blow the engines to win the battle.

But really, at Colonel, von Spee completely controlled the engagement with only a small speed advantage. von Spee would refuse combat with a battleship.

So it does not matter what pre-dreadnought Craddock had. It may as well have been beached at Port Stanley. The only way it would get into the fight at an alternate Colonel would be finishing off damaged stragglers.
 
The answer is not British.
The best ship for the job would be the Regina Elena, which was essencially a Predreanought Battlecruiser (in the German sense) or Predreadnought fast Battleship.
 
The sea state at Coronel left the Good Hope & Monmouth unable to use their secondary batteries mounted in casemates. The same would apply to the Bacchantes. And I believe the German 8.3" had longer range than the British 9.2" (certainly the later model 9.2" is consistently described by one historian as "crapulent").
What do you actually need to win?

Spee has 2 armoured cruisers and 3 light cruisers

S&G are the main issue have 22Kn (but probably less)
two x 8 × 21 cm (8.3 in) guns, 6 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns

Dresden, Nürnberg and Leipzig are much weaker even if slightly faster 24,22,23Kn
each with 10 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/40 guns

Against,

2 armoured cruisers,
HMS Good Hope, 2 × single 9.2 in (234 mm) guns & 16 × single 6 in (152 mm) guns (weaker and older than S&G)
HMS Monmouth, 2 × twin, 10 × single BL 6-inch Mk VII guns (hopeless to S&G but should match off a CL)

1 light cruiser, HMS Glasgow 2x6" and 10x4" stronger and faster than any other CL

1 auxiliary cruiser, Lets forget that......

But how much do we need to help them before its actually decisive? I think we really only need say 3 more old AC

Each with 2 × single BL 9.2-inch (234-mm) Mk X guns, 12 × single BL 6-inch (152-mm) Mk VII guns and 21Kn

This would give two each against S&G (4x 9.2" v 6x 8.3" but massively more 6") and leave Monmouth and Glasgow to fight the three CLs I think it should be an RN victory or at least a destructive draw for both sides?

(But if I was 1st Sea Lord I would add a Warrior or Minotaur to make sure!)
This is sort of hijacking the thread from the OP, but I find this question more interesting. What did Craddock actually need to win?

Sturdee's force at the Falklands was overwhelming.

There was an international squadron off Mexico at the time looking for von Spee, consisting of the HMAS Australia, the HIJMS Izumo, and the HMS Newcastle. If those were added to Craddocks command, I'm pretty sure that would be enough.

If that international squadron by itself fought a second Colonel, That might be a close run thing.
An Entente BC and AC would mean von Spee's 2 ACs would have to fight one each. That leaves 3 German light cruisers to fight Newcastle. Depending on how the battle was going, the light cruisers might scatter, as they did at the Falklands.

HMAS Australia, 4 x twin 12" 16 single 4"
HIJMS Izumo, 2 x twin 8" 14 single 6"
HMS Newcastle 2 single 6" 10 single 4"

Actually, wiki says Izumo's top speed is only 20.75 knots. So she might either get left behind, or slow the squadron down.
 
Hmmm... so I guess it’s the 21.5 knot Iron Dukes.

Wikipedia says the King George V class reached 22.9 knots during trials.

The Dukes aren't going to be risked on something like that.

Maybe the superdreadnoughts are considered more valuable in the North Sea, but I think hunting armored cruisers is pretty low risk compared to anything else they might be called upon to do. HMS Audacious and HMS Vanguard (IIRC the only two dreadnoughts lost during the war) both sank without an enemy ship in sight. The concern would be if the High Seas Fleet decided to seek decisive battle and if the absence of one British dreadnought would make any kind of difference.
 
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