Best predreadnought for Craddock?

MatthewB

Banned
If Admiral Craddock had to be saddled with a RN predreadnought battleship, which is the best ship to replace Canopus? Presumably we want something fast enough to make it to Coronel in time, for starters.

And what difference does it make if a newer or faster ship like HMS Agamemnon or HMS Swiftsure is with Craddock?
 
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If Admiral Craddock had to be saddled with a RN predreadnought battleship, which is the best ship to replace Canopus? Presumably we want something fast enough to make it to Coronel in time, for starters.

And what difference does it make if a newer or faster ship like HMS Agamemnon or HMS Swiftsure is with Craddock?

The problem there is that the pre-dreads were all slow. Swiftsure was only one knot faster than Canopus. If you want any faster than that, you're looking at armored cruisers, and they don't have anything near the weight of fire even a pre-dread does.
 

MatthewB

Banned
The problem there is that the pre-dreads were all slow. Swiftsure was only one knot faster than Canopus. If you want any faster than that, you're looking at armored cruisers, and they don't have anything near the weight of fire even a pre-dread does.
True, but everything without a turbine engine was slow then. With a clean bottom and new engines a Scharnhorst-class cruiser was capable of about 22 knots.

But the issue isn't really about having the speed to chase down Von Spee, but more so having the speed to get to Craddock in time. HMS Canopus was traveling to Craddock's station at about 6-8 knots, IIRC.
 
Given the choice of ANY pre-dreadnought, one of the King George's or a Nelson. They were the most modern classes of Pre-dreads the RN had and were still considered front line ships and would have had a full time crew and been in the best condition.

The Canopus' situation wasn't helped by the fact that her chief engineer had apparently had a nervous breakdown and the ship was capable of doing 12 knots without issue. Sure its not much but its faster than what they thought she could do.
 
True, but everything without a turbine engine was slow then. With a clean bottom and new engines a Scharnhorst-class cruiser was capable of about 22 knots.

But the issue isn't really about having the speed to chase down Von Spee, but more so having the speed to get to Craddock in time. HMS Canopus was traveling to Craddock's station at about 6-8 knots, IIRC.
Wasn't Canopus capable of higher speed, but her engineer was insane and kept her limited?
Either way I'd go with one of the Lord Nelsons, just the best overall pre dread you have
 
Wasn't Canopus capable of higher speed, but her engineer was insane and kept her limited?
Either way I'd go with one of the Lord Nelsons, just the best overall pre dread you have

Yeah according to Castles of Steel they managed to get her up to 16 knots trying to catch up with Cradoc.
 
Reciprocating engines also really don't like operating at or near full power for long periods of time, whereas turbines can sustain high speeds as long as there is enough steam and lubrication.
 
To be fair, why not send some armored cruisers? They are supposed to ba capable of taking on other armored cruisers and that's what they'll be facing in this case.

Send a couple of the newest armored cruisers (not battlecruisers) and things should be fine enough...
 
True, but everything without a turbine engine was slow then. With a clean bottom and new engines a Scharnhorst-class cruiser was capable of about 22 knots.

But the issue isn't really about having the speed to chase down Von Spee, but more so having the speed to get to Craddock in time. HMS Canopus was traveling to Craddock's station at about 6-8 knots, IIRC.
Given the choice of ANY pre-dreadnought, one of the King George's or a Nelson. They were the most modern classes of Pre-dreads the RN had and were still considered front line ships and would have had a full time crew and been in the best condition.

The Canopus' situation wasn't helped by the fact that her chief engineer had apparently had a nervous breakdown and the ship was capable of doing 12 knots without issue. Sure its not much but its faster than what they thought she could do.
What they said.

This quote is from the transcript of NAVAL OPERATIONS Vol. I on the Naval History website.
To meet the needs of the situation the organisation in Home Waters was based on three fleets, in progressive states of readiness for war. In the First were a fleet flagship and four battle squadrons, the 1st, 2nd and 4th consisting of " Dreadnoughts," and the 3rd of eight " King Edwards," the last development of the " Majestic " type. In July 1914 the " Dreadnought" battleships in commission numbered twenty against the German thirteen, and ship for ship the German, though better protected, were inferior in gun power to our own, while against the Agamemnon and the eight " King Edwards" they had five " Deutschlands" and five " Braunschweigs" of inferior armament.

Dreadnoughts and Pre-Dreadnoughts 1914.png

(The Agamemnon was attached temporarily to the 4th Battle Squadron. In addition to the above we had approaching completion two more " Iron Dukes " and two of the new " Queen Elizabeth " class, with eight 15", and the Germans had three large "Dreadnoughts" of improved type, of which the Koenig the nameship of the class, was more advanced than our own.)

The First Fleet had also a squadron of four battle cruisers, all except one being of the latest type, with eight 13.5" guns, against which the Germans could show on the North Sea three of an earlier type armed with 11" guns. In cruisers our First Fleet entirely overweighed the High Seas Fleet. (For details and organisation of the High Seas Fleet see Appendix A.) Besides the cruisers attached to the battle squadrons, it had four squadrons, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (of which, however, the 4th was actually in the West Indies), and a light cruiser squadron. It had also attached to it the first four flotillas of destroyers, each comprising a cruiser leader and twenty units. (The actual number of the Grand Fleet destroyers was 76, of which 33 had a speed of no more than 27 knots. Against these Germany had in Home Waters 96 of 30 knots or over and 48 others of from 30 to 26 knots fit for coastal work). This was in effect the " Grand Fleet," which was intended to be in position to occupy the North Sea at the outbreak of war, and it was always kept in full commission ready for immediate action.

The Second Fleet consisted of the Lord Nelson (four 12", ten 9.2") as Fleet flagship with the 5th and 6th Battle Squadrons, that is, five "Duncans," eight "Formidables," and the Vengeance, each armed with four 12" and twelve 6", to which the Germans could oppose only five "Wittelsbachs" and five "Kaiser Friedrichs," armed with four 9.4" and fourteen to eighteen 5.9". These obsolescent German ships also formed a second fleet, designed, with the older armoured and protected cruisers, to operate in the Baltic and keep the Russian Fleet in check.

Assigned to our own Second Fleet were two cruiser squadrons, the 5th and 6th, but this was for administrative purposes only. They formed no part of its war organisation, but, as will appear directly, were allotted other duties of immediate importance. In the same way there was nominally attached to it the bulk of the Home Defence Patrol Flotillas. They comprised seven flotilla cruisers, four patrol flotillas and seven flotillas of submarines. Except for the submarines this fleet was not on a war footing, but was manned by what were called "Active Service Crews," consisting of all the specialist officers and about three-fifths of the full complement of men. They could, however, be ready in a few hours, for " Balance Crews," consisting mainly of men going through courses of training, were kept together in various naval barracks ready to embark at the shortest notice. As the main function of the battle squadrons was to form the Channel Fleet in immediate proximity to its home ports, no higher degree of readiness was necessary.

CRUISER ORGANISATION

The remainder of the battleships and cruisers still on the active list formed the Third Fleet, which was in effect a "Reserve." It comprised the 7th and 8th Battle Squadrons – that is, five "Canopus" and nine "Majestics," with five squadrons of cruisers. (Against these still efficient battleships with four 12" guns and twelve 6", the Germans could only show two "Brandenburgs" with six 11" and eight "Hagens" with three 9.4".) They were not in commission, but were distributed in groups in various home ports, and were manned by no more than "care and maintenance" parties, for full crews they had to rely on the various Reserves, and therefore could only be brought forward for service some time after mobilisation. The battleships were all on the brink of obsolescence, and as none of them had any definite place as active ships in the initial distribution, the system served well enough. They were regarded as available for subsidiary services, and shortly before the war four of the "Majestics" had been allotted as guardships for the Humber till its new defences could be completed.

With the cruisers, however, the case was different. Besides securing the position in Home Waters, the Home Fleets were responsible for commerce protection over all the trade routes in the Atlantic, and it was from the Third Fleet cruisers that the system had to be completed. During peace we had nothing in the Atlantic except one ship on the South American station, and the 4th Cruiser Squadron which, as we have seen, was engaged at the moment entirely in the West Indian area for the protection of British interests in Mexico. By the organisation, it will be remembered, it belonged to the First Fleet, and though the intention was that from time to time it should join the Commander-in-Chief's flag for manoeuvres, it was in practice permanently detached in the West Atlantic. The next squadrons to be ready would be the two attached to the Second Fleet. of these the 6th, which consisted of four "Drakes," though intended to support the flotillas in the south part of the North Sea, had to be diverted to take the place of the 4th Squadron in the Grand Fleet. The 5th, which on the eve of the war consisted of the Carnarvon and three "Monmouths," was assigned to the most important and exposed area in the Atlantic trade routes – that is, to the Mid-Atlantic area between the West Coast of Africa and Brazil, in which lay the converging points of the great southern trade. All the nearer stations had to be filled from the Third Fleet Squadrons, some of which were actually required to complete the disposition in Home Waters. The 10th, for instance, was to act in close connection with the Grand Fleet and to form what was known as the Northern Patrol – that is, the Patrol specially charged with exercising control of the trade route to Germany north-about. The 11th Squadron was to operate to the West of Ireland to cover the home terminals of the great Western trade routes, and the 12th to combine with the French cruisers in the approaches to the Channel, in accordance with the provisional arrangement which had been settled between the two Admiralty Staffs in October 1913. The 7th Squadron also acted in Home Waters, the greater part of it being employed in place of the " Drakes " with the flotillas which guarded the southern part of the North Sea. The remaining squadron – that is, the 9th (for the 8th had no ships assigned to it) – was to complete the protection of the great Southern and Mediterranean routes, its station being off the mouth of the Straits and covering the area Cape Finisterre-Azores-Madeira immediately north of the 5th Squadron in the Mid-Atlantic area. The general idea was to push out these ships as fast as they were mobilised, but as they were on the Third Fleet basis some delay was inevitable. So far as possible it was minimised by the fact that the nearest stations were assigned to them. Still the risk remained, and had to be accepted as the price paid for the immediate readiness of the First and Second Fleets.

Beyond the Mediterranean and Red Sea, for which, as we have seen, a special fleet was provided, our interests were guarded by four squadrons. The most important of them was that on the China station, with one battleship, two cruisers, two light cruisers, eight destroyers, four torpedo boats, three submarines and a flotilla of sixteen sloops and gunboats, ten of which were river gunboats.

Next came the squadron provided by the Australian Commonwealth, with one battle cruiser, four light cruisers, three destroyers and two submarines. Associated with it was the New Zealand station with three old " P" class light cruisers and a sloop. Finally, there was the East Indies Squadron, with one battleship, two light cruisers and four sloops.

Each squadron was an independent command, but an organisation had been worked out under which they could be formed into one force, known as the Eastern Fleet, under the command of the Commander-in-Chief of the China station. When so formed it would consist of two battleships, one battle cruiser, two cruisers, eleven light cruisers, eleven sea-going sloops and gunboats, eleven destroyers and five submarines. More loosely connected with this Fleet was the Cape station, which, with only three light cruisers, occupied South African waters between the Mid-Atlantic station and the East Indies station.

TRADE AND COAST DEFENCE

The only other foreign stations were the West Coast of Africa - with a single gunboat, the South-east Coast of America with one light cruiser, and the West Coast of North America with two sloops, both of which were on the west coast of Mexico watching British interests, like the 4th Cruiser Squadron on the Atlantic side.

In this way the vast extent of the Seven Seas was occupied in the traditional manner, not by patrolling the trade routes, but by guarding in such force as our resources permitted the main focal areas where they converged, and where the enemy's commerce destroyers were most likely to be attracted and had the only chance of making a serious impression upon the huge volume of our trade. At some of these points, and particularly those which had recently attained importance, such as the Fernando Noronha or Pernambuco area off the north-east shoulder of Brazil, our hold, as will appear later, was weak. To some extent, also, the system was distorted by the desire to watch ports which were frequented by enemy's ships capable of being converted into commerce raiders. In other words, the principle of watching focal points was at times crossed and confused by the principle of watching bases. But on the whole the system worked well, and when we consider the prodigious nature of the task, the unprecedented volume of trade, the tangled web which its crossing routes wove round the earth, and then how slender was our cruiser force beside the immensity of the oceans, and how in every corner of them the enemy was lurking, all defects are lost in the brilliance and magnitude of the success. We have now, after our manner, ceased to wonder at it, but the fact remains that, for all we may point to occasions and places where more might have been done, the success of the defence over the attack went beyond everything the most sanguine and foresighted among us had dared to hope, and beyond anything we had achieved before.
That was longer than I intended it to be.

I did it to show that the King Edwards and Lord Nelsons were First Fleet ships and the Canopus class were Third Fleet ships.

Any pre-dreadnought from the First or Second Fleet would have been an improvement on Canopus, not because they were more modern designs, but because they would have had a better trained crew, that could have got the most out of the ship.

Having written that Churchill would have been better off sending a battlecruiser or two. That's what he ended up doing anyway. Or if none of them could be spared one or two of the older dreadnoughts.
 
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MatthewB

Banned
To be fair, why not send some armored cruisers?
Because that's a different discussion. We're looking at replacing the one predreadnought sent IOTL with another one.

If you're sending two or more Minotaur or Warrior class ACRs, in addition to the older ACRs Craddock already has, that's an entirely different engagement.
 

MatthewB

Banned
Any pre-dreadnought from the First or Second Fleet would have been an improvement on Canopus, not because they were more modern designs, but because they would have had a better trained crew, that could have got the most out of the ship.
I've always liked the Canopus class, I suppose because they were designed for Far East deployment and the Royal Navy in Hong Kong and Singapore is a strong interest of mine. I imagine if Canopus was given a thorough refit and a well trained crew she would have done as well as any predreadnought, but as you say, she's a third fleet castoff, poor lady.
 
How does the speed of the fastest available British dreadnought compare with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in late 1914?

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau could do 22 knots with a clean bottom straight out of dry dock. After months at sea in warm waters they would have had lots fouling and could probably do about 20 knots. The fastest RN Dreadnought was HMS Dreadnought which did 21.75 knots clean. The Invincible class Battlecruisers did 26 knots clean.
 
Canopus was not an idiotic choice, it probably could have done ok at Coronel, the problem was getting there at the same pace

Detaching a single King Edward VII would not have materially damaged the main fleets. After all, the battlecruisers are being deployed all over the place, so send Britannia or Commonwealth instead

best regards
Grey Wolf
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
What they said.

This quote is from the transcript of NAVAL OPERATIONS Vol. I on the Naval History website.That was longer than I intended it to be.

I did it to show that the King Edwards and Lord Nelsons were First Fleet ships and the Canopus class were Third Fleet ships.

Any pre-dreadnought from the First or Second Fleet would have been an improvement on Canopus, not because they were more modern designs, but because they would have had a better trained crew, that could have got the most out of the ship.

Having written that Churchill would have been better off sending a battlecruiser or two. That's what he ended up doing anyway. Or if none of them could be spared one or two of the older dreadnoughts.
None of the old BB were an answer. They lacked the speed to force an engagement. The best option was the one eventually taken, to actually use the BC in the role they were designed to play.
 
How does the speed of the fastest available British dreadnought compare with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in late 1914?

The Swiftsure and Triumph were both capable of and did exceed 20 knots but that was really flogging their guts out. Something like the King Edward or the Nelson would have been fine for 18 knots although you'd not want to do that for too long a period.
 

MatthewB

Banned
How does the speed of the fastest available British dreadnought compare with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in late 1914?
Fastest British dreadnought was the QE class, 25 knots vs. S&G at 20-22 knots. A single QE class ship alone at Coronel would be like HMS Warspite at Narvik, with Von Spee’s entire fleet quickly sinking. His only hope would be to rush his faster protected cruisers for a torpedo strike.

But that’s not really relevant, as we’re sending a predreadnought.
 
None of the old BB were an answer. They lacked the speed to force an engagement. The best option was the one eventually taken, to actually use the BC in the role they were designed to play.
What @MatthewB said, i.e.
But that’s not really relevant, as we’re sending a pre-dreadnought.
And what I said.
Having written that Churchill would have been better off sending a battlecruiser or two. That's what he ended up doing anyway. Or if none of them could be spared one or two of the older dreadnoughts.
 
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