Best possible SMG with 1943 technology?

[Deleted member 1487]

I actually totally agree with this last statement, only difference is I would have an M2 carbine (select fire) in the .270-.280 caliber range. The Soviets made a ton of SMG because they could, not because they were better than actual full power rifles.

Funny, I was about to post a quote from someone about the greater suitability of the M2 Carbine for the role anyway.
The Soviets did make SMGs because for their forces and the quality of training they got it was better because they were much more likely to score a hit than with a rifle. Plus they learned how devastatingly effective they could be at normal combat ranges courtesy of the Finns. It is also why they were one of the first major combatants to develop an intermediate cartridge for a SAW and their own assault rifle and semi-auto rifle, having realized too the limitations of the SMG when facing the STG and it's forerunner prototypes.

I didn't suggest that because the thread is best SMG using 1943 tech. That was, is, and will remain, IMO something that looks and functions very much like a CZ 25 or an Uzi. It can be in 9mm, it will be a decent weapon, but will be, IMO, sub-optimal for the role that a SMG is designed for and that the Red Army used to great effect in urban environments.

Though technically it isn't an SMG, the M2 Carbine really fit the role better than any SMG of the war plus some. It was just shy of an assault rifle though, but did actually provided the platform with a necked down version of it's cartridge that proved the 5.56mm SCHV for military purposes.
I'd actually argue that given that it hit as hard as a .357, was fully useful within the normal SMG ranges on automatic and even beyond, that the M2 Carbine (really even the M1 too as the prototype had the automatic feature, but the military ordered it deleted) was actually the ideal SMG+ of 1943 (and 1941-55):

With the 5.7mm Spitfire round, fully achievable in 1943 technologically, it would have solved any issue of over penetration while increasing lethality and replaced just about any SMG in any role, while actually having great controllability and accuracy than the 110gr .30 round.

 

[yulzari]

I thought you were saying that it was already in that.
You sure about the changes making it able to handle the extra power? Why couldn't that simply be applied to the Danuvia 43M then? Also, wouldn't lead deform under that sort of pressure?

The ability of a bolt to suitably delay opening in a blow back breech is (ceteris paribus) a function of it's mass. Replacing the mass block with much heavier lead will soon deform the lead but lead contained within a steel container will not deform.

 

[marathag]

The ability of a bolt to suitably delay opening in a blow back breech is (ceteris paribus) a function of it's mass. Replacing the mass block with much heavier lead will soon deform the lead but lead contained within a steel container will not deform.

Though some STENs used Bronze alloy for the Bolt, that was a shade denser than Steel

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Though some STENs used Bronze alloy for the Bolt, that was a shade denser than Steel

Spoiler

I'm not sure bronze is available for mass production across the board.

The ability of a bolt to suitably delay opening in a blow back breech is (ceteris paribus) a function of it's mass. Replacing the mass block with much heavier lead will soon deform the lead but lead contained within a steel container will not deform.

Really? Do you know of any examples of where that was used?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Speaking of Mauser export caliber:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_Model_900

 

[riggerrob]

Let's narrow this discussion to the best pistol/SMG ammo of 1943.

7.62 X 25mm Tokarev
9 X 19mm Luger
9 X 25mm Mauser Export
.45 ACP
8 X 22 Nambu
Suggestions?

 

[marathag]

I'm not sure bronze is available for mass production across the board.

Far easier to cast and machine, but does cost more

 

[marathag]

Let's narrow this discussion to the best pistol/SMG ammo of 1943.

7.62 X. mm Tokarev
9 X 19mm Luger
9 X 25 Mauser Export
.45 ACP
8 X 22 Nambu
Suggestions?

"An interesting development of the year 1922 was the Remington-Thompson .45 cartridge. This had a case or shell about one-eighth inch longer than standard, that it might not accidently be fired in a .45 caliber pistol. Results would have been disastrous because of the excessive pressure.

This Remington-Thompson load used a 250 grain bullet driven at a muzzle velocity of 1,450 f.s. It had a penetration of about fifteen boards at the muzzle, and better than eight at the 300 yard mark. However its production was abandoned when it was found that the accuracy was not as great as that of the 230 grain standard load, and its 1050 foot pounds muzzle energy as against 430 foot pounds for the standard load did not appear to deliver the increased shocking power which was expected of it. Guns using this cartridge were never sold commercially, although very complete tests were run by the Auto-Ordnance Corporation."

It was pretty much a late '70s 45 Magnum, but in 1922 Would have worked fine in the Thompson, M3 or M2 carbine

 

[riggerrob]

Astra 900 series (and Mauser 98) with detactable butt-stock/ holster was a decent PDW.

Next question: were they any good for closing the last 100 metres towards the enemy (infantry role)?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Let's narrow this discussion to the best pistol/SMG ammo of 1943.

7.62 X 25mm Tokarev
9 X 19mm Luger
9 X 25mm Mauser Export
.45 ACP
8 X 22 Nambu
Suggestions?

.30 Carbine.

And the weapon for it:

 

[riggerrob]

Next question: what type of stock was best for a "best of 1943" SMG?

Fixed
Detachable (Astra 900)
Folding
Side-folding
Underneath folding
Over the top folding
Telescoping
Wood
Sheet steel
Tube steel
Machined steel
Wire
Wood
Leather-covered
Bakelite-covered
Other suggestions

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Astra 900 series (and Mauser 98) with detactable butt-stock/ holster was a decent PDW.

Next question: were they any good for closing the last 100 metres towards the enemy (infantry role)?

It fired the Mauser 7.63mm round, which was the bases for the 7.62 Tokarev.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.63×25mm_Mauser
It was effectively a Tokarev in terms of performance.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Next question: what type of stock was best for a "best of 1943" SMG?

Fixed
Detachable (Astra 900)
Folding
Side-folding
Underneath folding
Over the top folding
Telescoping
Wood
Sheet steel
Tube steel
Machined steel
Wire
Wood
Leather-covered
Bakelite-covered
Other suggestions

Depends on what you're looking for. I'm partial to a side folding polymer stock, which in WW2 probably would be something like Bakelite. Tube steel would work too. A fixed stock is certainly easier to make, but then makes the weapon somewhat harder to carry/store for say halftrack/truck/PDW use.
In terms of production steel based stamped metal construction is the cheapest and quickest to make, hence the PPSH43, Sten, M3 Grease Gun, and MP40, plus later prototypes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMP_44

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Let's narrow this discussion to the best pistol/SMG ammo of 1943.

7.62 X 25mm Tokarev
9 X 19mm Luger
9 X 25mm Mauser Export
.45 ACP
8 X 22 Nambu
Suggestions?

What is the range limit you want? If only 100m but no further than the 9mm parabellum is probably ideal. The Tokarev is unnecessarily powerful, the .45 ACP requires a heavier more expensive weapon to stay accurate, the Nambu is underpowered, while the 9mm Mauser export is also too powerful for the range.
In terms of resource used per round, recoil managability, and weapon platform inexpensiveness/quality we're again back to the 9mm parabellum.
Then it is about finding which platform is cheap enough while keeping the quality/robustness and manageable recoil that conscripts require. The PPSH43 might be as close as anyone came IOTL, the question is whether you could make it in 9mm.

Edit:
turns out you can:

 

[yulzari]

I want it to be manageable and accurate out to 100 metres in short controlled bursts, have a ROF not above 500 rpm and be able to give accurate suppressive fire out to 250 metres. Be utterly reliable in all conditions and have a magazine with reliable feed lips properly tempered in the best steel.. 9x25 Mauser Export or the Tokarey 7.63 equivalent would do very adequately. With a sight that can quickly flip an aperture for up to 100 metres and up to 200 metres and the latter with a notch on top to 300 metres. A good folding bipod. Ideally a fixed stock. I would want it to be more than just a PDW for non-infantry use but rather as a short range automatic rifle with lightweight, short ammunition. A quick change barrel would be a luxury possibility. I want a side mounted or top mounted magazine for prone use.

I would accept that a simple cheap STEN/PPS 43 type would be quite adequate for the second line users as a PDW.

There is the best SMG if you are equipping your mass conscript army and the best SMG if you are going to be using it yourself. I want the latter. My model remains the ZK 323.

 

[marathag]

In terms of resource used per round, recoil managability, and weapon platform inexpensiveness/quality we're again back to the 9mm parabellum.

Some Thompsons were made in .38 Super, a bit hotter than the 9mm, with 130gr. FMJ bullet at 1280fps, 643J
That's in Tokarev territory in energy

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I want it to be manageable and accurate out to 100 metres in short controlled bursts, have a ROF not above 500 rpm and be able to give accurate suppressive fire out to 250 metres. Be utterly reliable in all conditions and have a magazine with reliable feed lips properly tempered in the best steel.. 9x25 Mauser Export or the Tokarey 7.63 equivalent would do very adequately. With a sight that can quickly flip an aperture for up to 100 metres and up to 200 metres and the latter with a notch on top to 300 metres. A good folding bipod. Ideally a fixed stock. I would want it to be more than just a PDW for non-infantry use but rather as a short range automatic rifle with lightweight, short ammunition. A quick change barrel would be a luxury possibility. I want a side mounted or top mounted magazine for prone use.

I would accept that a simple cheap STEN/PPS 43 type would be quite adequate for the second line users as a PDW.

There is the best SMG if you are equipping your mass conscript army and the best SMG if you are going to be using it yourself. I want the latter. My model remains the ZK 323.

Sounds more like a heavier, sturdier M2 carbine (easier to control in automatic fire) would be what you're looking for, especially with better designed bullet that is more aerodynamic for maintained energy out to 300m. Kinda like that Hungarian SMG that was almost a carbine.

The ZK323 was in 9mm parabellum so would lack ability out to 300m and probably would drop off heavily beyond 150-200m while the 9mm Mauser Export required a 16.5 inch barrel and maybe a 'hot' loading to get to 300m effectively. The Tokarev fell off at about 150m but could spray fire out to 300m, but would require 5-6 hits to score an incapacitation due to energy loss of the bullet, IIRC 2-3 hits at 200m for the same.
Also, why a bi-pod for an SMG?
If you want the best SMG, the MP34 is hard to beat, especially as it was in 9mm Export already.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_34

The MP34 was manufactured from the very best materials available and finished to the highest possible standard. It was so well manufactured that it has often been nicknamed the "Rolls Royce of submachine guns". However, its production costs were extremely high as a consequence.

Some Thompsons were made in .38 Super, a bit hotter than the 9mm, with 130gr. FMJ bullet at 1280fps, 643J
That's in Tokarev territory in energy

Good stuff...but it is also heavier than an STG44 and more expensive:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun

Weight

• 10.8 lb (4.9 kg) empty (M1928A1)
• 10.6 lb (4.8 kg) empty (M1A1)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_44

Weight 4.6 kg (10 lb) unloaded with magazine [1]

If we are talking about that, might as well use an MP43. Fully controllable in automatic, used a 125 grain round and was useful out to 400m and beyond (apparently out to 300m in burst fire).

 

[marathag]

Good stuff...but it is also heavier than an STG44 and more expensive:
If we are talking about that, might as well use an MP43. Fully controllable in automatic, used a 125 grain round and was useful out to 400m and beyond (apparently out to 300m in burst fire).

No reason .45 R-T couldn't have been used in the M2 or Grease Gun, though the M3 bolt on that would be massive enough to lower it's already slow RoF

 

[Deleted member 1487]

No reason .45 R-T couldn't have been used in the M2 or Grease Gun, though the M3 bolt on that would be massive enough to lower it's already slow RoF

The small barrel and light weight was a major problem to accuracy.
The M3 though had a conversion kit to use 9mm parabellum, I wonder if that made any difference?
According to wikipedia it was reasonably accurate out to 100m with the 9mm and had a higher rate of fire, but shot high due to the sight not being optimized to the caliber. Anything higher velocity probably would have a problem. The M2 would need to be made much heavier to handle a heavier round due to the recoil impulse of the .45 ACP, let alone a higher powered version.

A converted M2 in Tokarev would be very interesting, because it was a bit lower powered, but could make use of the barrel length; cutting the M2 carbine barrel down a bit and using a front grip probably could optimize the accuracy of the Tokarev round.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

So when has been said and done - I believe that we are back to a 'Hot' 9mm Para (9mmx19 +) and for me there is only one weapon to shoot it - the Sterling or Pratchett machine Carbine - Britains apology to itself for the Sten Gun

Accurate, light, very controllable, very durable folds quickly into a very small package and is staggeringly simple. It has one of the Best magazines of the period (faulty magazine feeding responsible for the majority of malfunctions on weapons of this period) and is still being made today.

The only compromise made for this weapon was that it could use Sten gun magazines (or 50 round Lanchester Mag if you can find one) if necessary - which is entirely sensible given the sheer number of them in circulation and from a logistics POV.

So I am back to the Sterling - pretty much as built.