think the DO-24 and FW-200 would be effective, you could add Dornier DO-26 for extremely long range recon, the HE-111 Zwilling later?
Best possible Kriegsmarine for 1940
- Thread starter King_Arthur
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- kriegsmarine plan z ww2
think the DO-24 and FW-200 would be effective, you could add Dornier DO-26 for extremely long range recon, the HE-111 Zwilling later?
there was a real glaring omission in the KM construction plans in that extensive minelaying was always anticipated, they built no minelayers?
they DID build some huge fleet tenders for S-boats and u-boats, useless for any offensive actions. since the minelayer class was to consist of eight ships, half training vessels easily converted to minelaying duty, there is probably some happy median?
http://www.avalanchepress.com/ZMinelayer.php
they DID build some huge fleet tenders for S-boats and u-boats, useless for any offensive actions. since the minelayer class was to consist of eight ships, half training vessels easily converted to minelaying duty, there is probably some happy median?
http://www.avalanchepress.com/ZMinelayer.php
Remember, whatever fleet structure the German's settle on, there will be a response from Britain and France. If the concentration is on U-boats, then more British anti-sub resources will be developed and so on. One navy's development will trigger a response from it's neighbors. You need to retain some balance in the fleet structure.
Quite right, the only fleet composition of Germany the UK will be comfortable with is a smaller version of the Royal Navy, it's what they know best and what they know they can beat reliably, Germany going rogue means no Anglo-German Naval Agreement which convinced many of Hitlers "peaceful" nature, you just might get the war earlier.
The "best possible Kriegsmarine" is OTL Kriegsmarine with some minor things fixed/improved that could have been found out, such as their faulty torpedos and Bismarcks anti air protection. To be a truly capable fleet at a realistic size it would need to avoid the 2 decades long shipbuilding hiatus.
Cryhavoc101
Donor
A different KM implies no Anglo-German Naval Agreement - this had several effects the most important of them was for the British to allow themselves to beleive that Germany was not arming against them and this delayed British rearmament while also forcing Germany to build a balanced fleet.
The act limited all ships to a 100:35 ratio of British ships:German Ships except in Submarines which was 100:45 and I believe later on increased to 100:100 by 1939
The Royal Navy only had about 50 odd Subs so Germany was limited to the same number
No AGNA - and you get a far more twitchy bunch of Paranoid types in Whitehall
Build more Subs than OTL and those Twitchy types will rapidly conclude who the principle target is and you can expect a more robust rearmament effort and a more robust reaction to Hitlers various examples of Brinkmanship by the UK.
So I feel that Germany would have to take the AGNA line lest it become counter productive to them later in the 30s
So I would suggest build the twins - build the subs to the limits agreed with the UK - make all cruisers long ranged and capable of acting in the Maritime interdiction role
Build as many fast freighters as possible but also as was done for a limited number of them OTL also have the designs built to allow for artillery, torpedoes, mines etc and stockpile enough weapons to quickly modify them for war and then on the eve of war surge them.
They will all eventually be hunted down but their impact and the effort required to deal with them would likely be well above the effort used
Build lots of Littoral ships - S-boats and cheap as chips light DDs or Torpedo boats as the Germans called them
A limited number of ships suitable for amphibious ops - mainly for quickly landing troops and equipment in the Baltic area
And yes build a couple of BBs even if just the twins - this will tie down units and tehy will be faster than the majority of enemy BBs so will not have to fight them and 11" guns would be just fine.
Aircraft carr...NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE
The KM should get its own fleet of Long Range Maritime Patrol aircraft - these could be simply more numbers of the existing LRMPA in German service but more of them modified to carry bombs or torpedoes or even drop sea mines to enable them to attack targets of opportunity.
This fleet cannot hope to take on the RN in the long term - but it can possibly do enough damage to British Maritime trade to allow Germany to acheive its aims on the European mainland and then seek to bring the war between Britain and Germany to an end (forgetting their Niccolò Machiavelli - "Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please").
The act limited all ships to a 100:35 ratio of British ships:German Ships except in Submarines which was 100:45 and I believe later on increased to 100:100 by 1939
The Royal Navy only had about 50 odd Subs so Germany was limited to the same number
No AGNA - and you get a far more twitchy bunch of Paranoid types in Whitehall
Build more Subs than OTL and those Twitchy types will rapidly conclude who the principle target is and you can expect a more robust rearmament effort and a more robust reaction to Hitlers various examples of Brinkmanship by the UK.
So I feel that Germany would have to take the AGNA line lest it become counter productive to them later in the 30s
So I would suggest build the twins - build the subs to the limits agreed with the UK - make all cruisers long ranged and capable of acting in the Maritime interdiction role
Build as many fast freighters as possible but also as was done for a limited number of them OTL also have the designs built to allow for artillery, torpedoes, mines etc and stockpile enough weapons to quickly modify them for war and then on the eve of war surge them.
They will all eventually be hunted down but their impact and the effort required to deal with them would likely be well above the effort used
Build lots of Littoral ships - S-boats and cheap as chips light DDs or Torpedo boats as the Germans called them
A limited number of ships suitable for amphibious ops - mainly for quickly landing troops and equipment in the Baltic area
And yes build a couple of BBs even if just the twins - this will tie down units and tehy will be faster than the majority of enemy BBs so will not have to fight them and 11" guns would be just fine.
Aircraft carr...NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE
The KM should get its own fleet of Long Range Maritime Patrol aircraft - these could be simply more numbers of the existing LRMPA in German service but more of them modified to carry bombs or torpedoes or even drop sea mines to enable them to attack targets of opportunity.
This fleet cannot hope to take on the RN in the long term - but it can possibly do enough damage to British Maritime trade to allow Germany to acheive its aims on the European mainland and then seek to bring the war between Britain and Germany to an end (forgetting their Niccolò Machiavelli - "Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please").
Littoral ships for coastline defense and roro rail ferries to boost the Scandinavian iron ore trade. 
For all the unplanned craziness of Nazi Germany it is truly remarkably they never gave any thought as to how to take the UK out of play. OTL they tried Risk Fleets and commerce raiding and failed. With hindsight lets try cannon to fire the army across the Channel. Yes I know. But based on the last two efforts it is reasonable to assume the army can get you to the Belgian coastline. If nothing else you get the force to make getting supplies from the UK to France difficult and it is cheaper than a raiding or battle fleet allowing more resources to go to the army. All the Stukas and 109s you want for air control over the Channel are duel use too.
For all the unplanned craziness of Nazi Germany it is truly remarkably they never gave any thought as to how to take the UK out of play. OTL they tried Risk Fleets and commerce raiding and failed. With hindsight lets try cannon to fire the army across the Channel. Yes I know.
But based on the last two efforts it is reasonable to assume the army can get you to the Belgian coastline. If nothing else you get the force to make getting supplies from the UK to France difficult and it is cheaper than a raiding or battle fleet allowing more resources to go to the army. All the Stukas and 109s you want for air control over the Channel are duel use too.as an alternative to the above (and a faster one to construct) they could have rebuilt some of the existing light cruisers as minelayers, similar to RN Adventure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Adventure_(M23) all the German K-class light cruisers were crank and needed a rebuild anyways.
to protect and replenish the S-boats and u-boats, they could have built 8 - 10 of the diesel Bremse https://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/training/bremse/history.html
Littoral ships for coastline defense and roro rail ferries to boost the Scandinavian iron ore trade.
For all the unplanned craziness of Nazi Germany it is truly remarkably they never gave any thought as to how to take the UK out of play. .
That's because they had more pressing things to do, like Maginot Line, French Army, Czechoslovakian and Polish Army etc.
Planning for defeat of the RN/UK while not being sure at all that you can actually even reach the UK in the first place is like planning for KM that will be capable to destroy the USN or IJN one day when Germany and japan divide Euroasia.
Personally, I think the best possible Kriegsmarine in 1940, would be one lying on the bottom of the sea.
My humble idea- scrap the Bismarck and Tirpitz and build instead 5-6 Panzerschiffe more. The rest as in OTL. No silly ideas as aircraft carriers.
But it is something that had to be done. It was assumed that a war with France would include the Empire and probably drag in the US eventually. U Boat construction wasn't started to contain France. But there seemed to be no thinking on the subject beyond commerce raiding (by the navy with a very vested interest in having something to do) and a wishful hope the UK would just see sense. Admittedly planning to take down France mostly consisted of throw a lot of guns and men at it until the rethink in 1940.
You are probably right. The Kriegsmarine was starved of resources and they were the only ones who cared.
the above is an excellent analysis of what would happen if a KM program of Panzerschiffe and/or u-boats was begun.
the obvious alternative, once AGNA signed is to build the covert auxiliary cruisers.
Maybe even not, because the British admirals might see that Germany without battleships is Germany they can can easily beat with their battleships And carriers. After all, battleship is the King of Seas, right?
Cryhavoc101
Donor
And yet it was the Uboats that nearly beat them in 1917?
Thats what ultimately kept them awake at night and Jellicoes greatest work IMO in ultimately beating them even if that bastard Poisoned Welsh Dwarf fired him before the work reach fruition.
If Germany starts building 100s no not even 100s ..scores of Uboats in the late 30s then stand by for a very differnet attitude and response from their nibs at Whitehall
and we cannot say "hey it would be effective to build 10 or 20 pocket battleships" the RN was well aware of the danger of that too.
if you are saying the Bismarck and Tirpitz, on balance, are a waste (and a bit late to the party) that may well be correct. that "hey, we are having trouble fabricating 15" guns and all this cemented armor, why not just build 2 more Scharnhorst with lessons we learned from the first two?" that is probably a good course?
Based on RN figures, the total lifecycle cost of a battleship vs carriers vs submarines capability over a 26 year period comes out as:
8 Nelson type battleships
7 KGV type fast battleships
3 Ark Royal carriers
6 Hermes type light carriers
13 County heavy cruisers
20 Arethusa/Dido light cruisers
33 1500ton Destroyers
42 800ton Submarines
The lifecycle cost factors in the annual maintenance, crew pay, consumable stores like food, ammo and fuel, regular refits and a 'large repair'. It excludes pensions and depreciation.
The differences between types can be explained as fast battleships burn more fuel, carriers have to replace their airwing every 4-5 years, cruisers (and carriers) have a shorter 20 year life, Destroyers and submarines have only 13 to 15 years and so are replaced twice over the 26 year lifecycle that the battleship will last. Submarines are also about 6-7 times more expensive per ton than battleships.
BB were the most cost effective naval unit on a ton for ton basis and were favored for a very long time in relation to other types of warships/capability. Apart from painting, armour doesn't require maintenance.
8 Nelson type battleships
7 KGV type fast battleships
3 Ark Royal carriers
6 Hermes type light carriers
13 County heavy cruisers
20 Arethusa/Dido light cruisers
33 1500ton Destroyers
42 800ton Submarines
The lifecycle cost factors in the annual maintenance, crew pay, consumable stores like food, ammo and fuel, regular refits and a 'large repair'. It excludes pensions and depreciation.
The differences between types can be explained as fast battleships burn more fuel, carriers have to replace their airwing every 4-5 years, cruisers (and carriers) have a shorter 20 year life, Destroyers and submarines have only 13 to 15 years and so are replaced twice over the 26 year lifecycle that the battleship will last. Submarines are also about 6-7 times more expensive per ton than battleships.
BB were the most cost effective naval unit on a ton for ton basis and were favored for a very long time in relation to other types of warships/capability. Apart from painting, armour doesn't require maintenance.
Cryhavoc101
Donor
Totally
A better KM is one that does not give Whitehall a reason for rearmament and creates a British Government that is no longer 'resonable' towards Germany in the mid/late 30s and at the same time being a KM that can smack British Maritime trade around for a year or two - long enough 'for the British to see reason'.
The British can react to any change in KM 'Meta' fleet than Germany can.
Build lots of Uboats? Look at all thsoe smaller ship yards in Britain that can make Corvettes/Sub chasers/Escorts by the hundreds. And just you look at how many twin Engined bombers we can build to use a ASW aircraft.
Build a dozen Panzersheiffe? Look at the RNs 24 new 15,000 Ton 'Town' class Heavy Crusiers each with 8 x 9.2" guns (as 1LNT get ripped to shreds)
Build a balanced fleet as agreed with Britain via the AGNA.......nothing to see here...move along...move along....
First I wouldn't build anything above a destroyer, immediately negates the value of the British Battleships due to lack off suitable targets. With their escorts this is about half the RN defeated without a shot fired. No admiral is going to send HMS George V or HMS Hood to hunt down a DD or S-Boat. Nor with some basic precautions are they going to attack your shoreline or coastal mercantile traffic. Just way to much risk against little reward.
However the RN will still need to maintain and expand its fleet of Capital ships due to both external (Italy & Japan) and internal factors(shipbuilders & admirals). This will also aid in keeping the sleeping dogs, sleeping. The British public will be a lot less worried about Germany if there isn't a HSF version 2.0.
Second go with commercially hulled & powered mine layers/sweepers and escorts. Or at least have conversion kits ready to be installed once war breaks out. Again due to these 'kits' being stuck in a warehouse they remain invisible to the British public even the professionals will have trouble spotting them.
Third the Destroyers job will be to hunt RN MTB, Destroyers, and Mine Layers to keep them away from your coastal shipping. Equip them as such and if you can make them coal powered with out losing combat efficiency so much the better. If possible make them appear as escort vessels by leaving off the torpedoes which wouldn't be of any use in their assigned task anyway.
Fourth the S-boats make sure that these officially do not have the operational range to reach the British coast from German harbors. Also call them Baltic patrols ships everything to imply that they can't harm the UK. But have plenty of these, a hundred or so re-based to the Belgian coast right behind the advancing Panzers is going to make any sort of Dunkirk evacuation impractical.
Fifth Merchant Raiders, again completely undetectable before the war, just make sure that they are out on the oceans just before the war breaks out. Take some 20 year old cargo vessel cram it full of coal and slap on some torpedo tubes and a gun or two and off they go. If they manage to sink even one Allied ship you are already far into the black, actually even without sinking anything they will already eat up RN resources as cruisers will have to be sent out to hunt them down. However should they be sunk/captured it is no great loss to Germany.
Sixth and final the submarines, try to hide them as best you can. Concentrate more on enabling rapid and continuing expansion of this fleet then having lots of them ready on day one. This will be a game of attrition.
Extra ideas
-announce and make much of the fact that Germany will refrain from building any offensive naval vessels.
-make arrangements to transport the Swedish iron ore via the Baltic during the summer months.
-buy as much crude oil before the war as is possible, store it in the old salt mines. At $0,10 a gallon it is steal at twice the price.
However the RN will still need to maintain and expand its fleet of Capital ships due to both external (Italy & Japan) and internal factors(shipbuilders & admirals). This will also aid in keeping the sleeping dogs, sleeping. The British public will be a lot less worried about Germany if there isn't a HSF version 2.0.
Second go with commercially hulled & powered mine layers/sweepers and escorts. Or at least have conversion kits ready to be installed once war breaks out. Again due to these 'kits' being stuck in a warehouse they remain invisible to the British public even the professionals will have trouble spotting them.
Third the Destroyers job will be to hunt RN MTB, Destroyers, and Mine Layers to keep them away from your coastal shipping. Equip them as such and if you can make them coal powered with out losing combat efficiency so much the better. If possible make them appear as escort vessels by leaving off the torpedoes which wouldn't be of any use in their assigned task anyway.
Fourth the S-boats make sure that these officially do not have the operational range to reach the British coast from German harbors. Also call them Baltic patrols ships everything to imply that they can't harm the UK. But have plenty of these, a hundred or so re-based to the Belgian coast right behind the advancing Panzers is going to make any sort of Dunkirk evacuation impractical.
Fifth Merchant Raiders, again completely undetectable before the war, just make sure that they are out on the oceans just before the war breaks out. Take some 20 year old cargo vessel cram it full of coal and slap on some torpedo tubes and a gun or two and off they go. If they manage to sink even one Allied ship you are already far into the black, actually even without sinking anything they will already eat up RN resources as cruisers will have to be sent out to hunt them down. However should they be sunk/captured it is no great loss to Germany.
Sixth and final the submarines, try to hide them as best you can. Concentrate more on enabling rapid and continuing expansion of this fleet then having lots of them ready on day one. This will be a game of attrition.
Extra ideas
-announce and make much of the fact that Germany will refrain from building any offensive naval vessels.
-make arrangements to transport the Swedish iron ore via the Baltic during the summer months.
-buy as much crude oil before the war as is possible, store it in the old salt mines. At $0,10 a gallon it is steal at twice the price.
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