A full Bomber Command maximum effort resulting in 5 thousand bomber raids on Brest in the period of a week wouldn't leave much intact. Even if the twins weren't sunk they'd be burnt out wrecks and the port would be incapable of hosting anything larger than a fishing boat. The town would also be an abandoned ruin.
Best possible british fleet for ww2
- Thread starter Hood
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Not just aircraft - a friend of my Father's was a tail gunner on Sunderland's, for the Cologne Raid he was switched to a Stirling. I remember him telling me, that he was sh** scared the whole time!
Immediately scrap hunter-killer box patrols by fleet CVs.
Bring forward the order of PBY Catalinas to Sept 4 1939.
The best fleet for 1940 is one that doesn't include Guy D'Oyly-Hughes.
There are six months to get FAA and Coastal Command reconnaissance and reporting procedures up to scratch so that when Weserubung is spotted by air patrols, it doesn't get to Norway. Is it possible to get working ASV radar by April 1940 in squadron service?
Is there any way to expedite the KGVs so that they are ready three months earlier? Or even to get DoY available before Bismarck's maiden cruise?
Bring forward the order of PBY Catalinas to Sept 4 1939.
The best fleet for 1940 is one that doesn't include Guy D'Oyly-Hughes.
There are six months to get FAA and Coastal Command reconnaissance and reporting procedures up to scratch so that when Weserubung is spotted by air patrols, it doesn't get to Norway. Is it possible to get working ASV radar by April 1940 in squadron service?
Is there any way to expedite the KGVs so that they are ready three months earlier? Or even to get DoY available before Bismarck's maiden cruise?
Assuming Bomber Command actually hits the right square mile or two and the AP bombs that hit the targets actually go off which otl didn't happen
Put him in a position where suicidal bravery/recklessness/idiocy (given the three are often only distinguishable from each other in hindsight...) is actually useful... Commanding a dozen MTBs; on the bridge of a Destroyer or Conning Tower of a Submarine.
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Another sensible thing to do is to reorder every Fiji class ship from Jamaica onward into Edinburghs
By 1939 its a bit late to change the hardware much.
Light carriers in 1939 is doable, just. But everything else on the slips was badly needed.
They were already building 120 escorts in 39-40, there isn't really the capacity for more. Some could have been ordered from the USA/Canada, but the dollars would have to be squeezed out of the treasury.
More AA and stuff - already fitting all they had, they couldn't increase for some years.
What they could do is change operationally.
Force planes out of Bomber Command, who aren't doing anything useful, into Coastal command - even if its official 'for the short term, and useful crew training'. The use of carriers as patrols was due to the AM not providing the planes it had promised for CC.
Tell all the ships on passage to muster at convenient ports, then form convoys. It would reduce the impact of the first couple of months (and reduce the effect of the initial U-boat surge).
Fix the coding issues, or at least change it to make the Germans waste time having to crack it again.
Train escort groups as groups, not an ad-hoc grouping on the day.
Practice and train for CC and the Fleet to work together in the North Sea.
Make a plan to destroy the KM and land in Norway now, so its not all thrown together at the last minute.
Push RR on the Griffon engine, ditch the Roc, and if we cant get SeaFires at least get a few Sea Hurricanes.
That's probably all that's practical without ASB assistance, but it would all help, some of it quite alot
Light carriers in 1939 is doable, just. But everything else on the slips was badly needed.
They were already building 120 escorts in 39-40, there isn't really the capacity for more. Some could have been ordered from the USA/Canada, but the dollars would have to be squeezed out of the treasury.
More AA and stuff - already fitting all they had, they couldn't increase for some years.
What they could do is change operationally.
Force planes out of Bomber Command, who aren't doing anything useful, into Coastal command - even if its official 'for the short term, and useful crew training'. The use of carriers as patrols was due to the AM not providing the planes it had promised for CC.
Tell all the ships on passage to muster at convenient ports, then form convoys. It would reduce the impact of the first couple of months (and reduce the effect of the initial U-boat surge).
Fix the coding issues, or at least change it to make the Germans waste time having to crack it again.
Train escort groups as groups, not an ad-hoc grouping on the day.
Practice and train for CC and the Fleet to work together in the North Sea.
Make a plan to destroy the KM and land in Norway now, so its not all thrown together at the last minute.
Push RR on the Griffon engine, ditch the Roc, and if we cant get SeaFires at least get a few Sea Hurricanes.
That's probably all that's practical without ASB assistance, but it would all help, some of it quite alot
At least reorder the ships ordered in September of 1939. That being said would make for an interesting change to the timeline if the Second London naval Treaty didn't limit cruisers to 8,000 tons and the Crown Colonies are improved Edinburghs
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He belong with the combined arms commando training units getting all Sykes and Fairburn. Crazier than a shit house rat. Brave beyond belief. Bit rubbish with aircraft carriers though.
Another good idea is to skip the Implacable design and instead go straight for something similar to an Audacious especially when one considers how long it took to finish the Implacables. On a similar note skip building Vanguard and funnel the shipyard workers and armor plate production capacity it took up into building said Audacious design. You can then use the 4 15" turrets and build more Roberts class monitors
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Nine of the Crown Colony-class cruisers were already under construction at the time the war began.
*HMS Nigeria - February 8th, 1938
*HMS Mauritius - March 13th, 1938
*HMS Fiji - March 30th, 1938
*HMS Trinidad - April 21st, 1938
*HMS June - June 18th, 1938
*HMS Ceylon - April 27th, 1939
*HMS Jamaica - April 28th, 1939
*HMS Uganda - July 20th, 1939
*HMS Gambia - July 24th, 1939
HMS Implacable was already under construction at the start of World War II having been laid down at Fairfield Shipbuilding on February 21st, 1939.
September 1939 feels a little late on the construction side; much of the die has been cast, at least for the first half of the war. The first four Illustrious class carriers and Implacable are already on the ways. Indefatigable will be laid down in November. All five KGVs are on the ways. Lion and Temeraire have been laid down. QE, Valiant and Renown are in hand for their full rebuilds. Most of the war time cruisers are built and nine of the Colony class have been laid down. Nine of the Didos have been laid down as well. Martlets will be ordered soon but the folding-wing version won't deliver until August 1941. The fixed wing variants can only operate from escort carriers or older carriers with larger elevators, like Eagle. The 'flight deck is the strength deck' carriers like Ark Royal and the early armored deck carriers need to wait for the Martlet II. The Swordfish entered service in 1936, the Skua entered in 1938. Fulmar won't come along until 1940, IIRC.
As far as Construction: the light fleets likely won't complete in time for the war; why build them? I know their larger elevators will make them more useful as post-war aircraft grow, but who is going to know that during the war?
In hindsight, if we really are going to push forward a British Pacific Fleet late-war, I might suspend/cancel Anson and Howe and prioritize Lion and Temeraire. They'll be more suited to operations in the Pacific. Alternatively, complete Anson and Howe, but bulge them to provide better torpedo protection.
I would also push for more destroyers fitted like Lance, Lively, Larne and Legion, with four twin 4in DP, to give the fleet more heavy air defense. In addition, I might try to use US yards to construct US destroyers for the RN. IIRC, Bensons and Gleaves were built after Pearl Harbor to supplement the construction of Fletcher-class. Getting a few flotillas worth of US destroyers would supplement the AA of the fleet and provide more destroyers. With more modern destroyers, get the older destroyers into convoy escort or off to places like Australia, Singapore and Hong Kong. Also with respect to AA, conversion of all C class cruisers to CLAA. They were better at AA than the Didos, why not make the most of them?
Tactically, first and foremost, never take Glorious out of the Med. When Dudley Pound was CinC-Med, and Lumley Lyster was her captain, the concept of an carrier raid on the RM at Taranto first came around. Lyster trained her crew constantly for such and operation. In my opinion, Judgement will be even harder on the Italian Fleet if Glorious undertakes the operation.
Also, with the start of the war, move the large 50,000 ton drydock out of Malta and to Alexandria. Don't wait for an Italian declaration of war and have the drydock spend the war on the bottom of Valetta harbor. Cunningham will able to dock larger ships and won't be limited to QEs and Rs.
I do like Cryhavoc's idea for Singapore. I would put a couple squadrons of Hunt class destroyers there as well, rotating them out of the combat areas. Their range won't be a hindrance and they can present a constant patrol force in the South China Sea. The IJN will have to sink one if their operations are found out early on the 8th of December, but Singapore and the rest of the world would be alerted. By the same token, keep at least half of the T-class submarines there. Rotate them out of the combat zones to Singapore and back, as with the destroyers. Also, put a couple squadrons of those fixed-wing Martlets in Singapore to defend the naval base.
With the RAF having priority on aircraft, I can't see the FAA improving without leveraging US builders. If that means more US aircraft earlier, so be it. I think RN carriers were under-armed early on in the war. Giving them fuller air complements, even with older air frames, will improve their performance.
Sub hunting is a job for smaller carriers like Hermes, Argus and Eagle. Use one of them instead of Courageous for early ASW work. If a U-boat gets lucky early in the war, it will still be a loss, but it will hurt less than the loss of Courageous, Glorious or Ark Royal.
When the time comes to form an Eastern Fleet, send a group of cruisers to reinforce the Hunt class in Singapore. Don't send Tom Phillips there, make his force a show of solidarity with Australia, basing in Indian (Colombo) and calling at Perth. And give him a proper fleet, with at least one carrier, two AA cruisers, two heavy and two light cruisers and couple squadrons of destroyers to partner with a pair of capital ships
I can't see intelligence getting much better, unless there could be more focus on the Italian naval codes.
By the time the BPF rolls around the FAA is maturing as weapon. I don't see much needing to change late war, the RN has learned all the lessons, some of them the hard way, but still learned.
My thoughts,
Get Scapa Flows defences improved ASAP. As it was the block ship that sealed the gap that Prien used arrived two days after his raid, have said block ship arrive three or four days earlier and you save Royal Oak which is the best of the R class as it had a fairly decent refit in the 30s
Here's a list of warships that were under construction in British shipyards on September 1st 1939.
Illustrious-class Fleet Carriers x 4
*HMS Illustrious
*HMS Formidable
*HMS Victorious
*HMS Indomitable
Implacable-class Fleet Carrier x 1
*HMS Implacable
Unicorn-class Maintenance Aircraft Carrier x 1
*HMS Unicorn
Queen Elizabeth-class Battleships x 2
*HMS Queen Elizabeth - undergoing reconstruction
*HMS Valiant - undergoing reconstruction
Renown-class Battlecruiser x 1
*HMS Renown - undergoing reconstruction
King George V-class Battleships x 5
*HMS King George V
*HMS Prince of Wales
*HMS Duke of York
*HMS Anson
*HMS Howe
Lion-class Battleships x 2
*HMS Lion
*HMS Temeraire
Dido-class Anti-Aircraft Cruisers x 9
*HMS Naiad
*HMS Bonaventure
*HMS Phoebe
*HMS Hermione
*HMS Euryalus
*HMS Dido
*HMS Sirius
*HMS Cleopatra
*HMS Scylla
Crown Colony-class Light Cruisers x 9
*HMS Nigeria
*HMS Mauritius
*HMS Fiji
*HMS Trinidad
*HMS June
*HMS Ceylon
*HMS Jamaica
*HMS Uganda
*HMS Gambia
Jurua/Havant-class Destroyers x 6
*Jurua
*Javary
*Jutahy
*Juruena
*Jaguaribe
*Japura
I-class Destroyers x 4
*TCG Muavenet
*TCG Gayret
*TCG Sultanhisar
*TCG Demirhisar
JKN-class Destroyers x 14
*HMS Jaguar
*HMS Kingston
*HMS Kandahar
*HMS Kashmir
*HMS Khartoum
*HMS Kelvin
*HMS Kipling
*HMS Kimberly
*HMS Noble
*HMS Napier
*HMS Nerissa
*HMS Nestor
*HMS Nizam
*HMS Norman
Hunt Mk.I-class Destroyers x 18
*HMS Atherstone
*HMS Berkeley
*HMS Eglinton
*HMS Exmoor
*HMS Fernie
*HMS Garth
*HMS Hambledon
*HMS Cattistock
*HMS Holderness
*HMS Cleveland
*HMS Pytchley
*HMS Quantock
*HMS Quorn
*HMS Tynedale
*HMS Whaddon
*HMS Mendip
*HMS Meynell
*HMS Southdown
LM-class Destroyers x 9
*HMS Larne
*HMS Legion
*HMS Lightning
*HMS Lookout
*HMS Loyal
*HMS Lively
*HMS Laforey
*HMS Lance
*HMS Marksman
T-class Submarine x 12
*HMS Thunderbolt
*HMS Tribune
*HMS Trident
*HMS Taku
*HMS Tarpon
*HMS Tigris
*HMS Triad
*HMS Truant
*HMS Tuna
*HMS Talisman
*HMS Tetrarch
*HMS Torbay
Oruc Reis-class Submarine x 3
*TCG Oruc Reis
*TCG Murat Reis
*TCG Burak Reis
Abdiel-class Minelayer x 4
*HMS Abdiel
*HMS Latona
*HMS Manxman
*HMS Welshman
Black Swan-class Sloop x 2
*HMS Black Swan
*HMS Flamingo
*HMS Illustrious
*HMS Formidable
*HMS Victorious
*HMS Indomitable
Implacable-class Fleet Carrier x 1
*HMS Implacable
Unicorn-class Maintenance Aircraft Carrier x 1
*HMS Unicorn
Queen Elizabeth-class Battleships x 2
*HMS Queen Elizabeth - undergoing reconstruction
*HMS Valiant - undergoing reconstruction
Renown-class Battlecruiser x 1
*HMS Renown - undergoing reconstruction
King George V-class Battleships x 5
*HMS King George V
*HMS Prince of Wales
*HMS Duke of York
*HMS Anson
*HMS Howe
Lion-class Battleships x 2
*HMS Lion
*HMS Temeraire
Dido-class Anti-Aircraft Cruisers x 9
*HMS Naiad
*HMS Bonaventure
*HMS Phoebe
*HMS Hermione
*HMS Euryalus
*HMS Dido
*HMS Sirius
*HMS Cleopatra
*HMS Scylla
Crown Colony-class Light Cruisers x 9
*HMS Nigeria
*HMS Mauritius
*HMS Fiji
*HMS Trinidad
*HMS June
*HMS Ceylon
*HMS Jamaica
*HMS Uganda
*HMS Gambia
Jurua/Havant-class Destroyers x 6
*Jurua
*Javary
*Jutahy
*Juruena
*Jaguaribe
*Japura
I-class Destroyers x 4
*TCG Muavenet
*TCG Gayret
*TCG Sultanhisar
*TCG Demirhisar
JKN-class Destroyers x 14
*HMS Jaguar
*HMS Kingston
*HMS Kandahar
*HMS Kashmir
*HMS Khartoum
*HMS Kelvin
*HMS Kipling
*HMS Kimberly
*HMS Noble
*HMS Napier
*HMS Nerissa
*HMS Nestor
*HMS Nizam
*HMS Norman
Hunt Mk.I-class Destroyers x 18
*HMS Atherstone
*HMS Berkeley
*HMS Eglinton
*HMS Exmoor
*HMS Fernie
*HMS Garth
*HMS Hambledon
*HMS Cattistock
*HMS Holderness
*HMS Cleveland
*HMS Pytchley
*HMS Quantock
*HMS Quorn
*HMS Tynedale
*HMS Whaddon
*HMS Mendip
*HMS Meynell
*HMS Southdown
LM-class Destroyers x 9
*HMS Larne
*HMS Legion
*HMS Lightning
*HMS Lookout
*HMS Loyal
*HMS Lively
*HMS Laforey
*HMS Lance
*HMS Marksman
T-class Submarine x 12
*HMS Thunderbolt
*HMS Tribune
*HMS Trident
*HMS Taku
*HMS Tarpon
*HMS Tigris
*HMS Triad
*HMS Truant
*HMS Tuna
*HMS Talisman
*HMS Tetrarch
*HMS Torbay
Oruc Reis-class Submarine x 3
*TCG Oruc Reis
*TCG Murat Reis
*TCG Burak Reis
Abdiel-class Minelayer x 4
*HMS Abdiel
*HMS Latona
*HMS Manxman
*HMS Welshman
Black Swan-class Sloop x 2
*HMS Black Swan
*HMS Flamingo
IMO should've been a case of 'poacher turned gamekeeper' i.e. firstly in charge of tactics to combat the submarine menace, then an early hunter-killer group to hunt them for real.