Best Political/Military Strategy for Paris Commune

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Around the end of the Franco-Prussian War (1871), the Parisian workers and some left intellectuals seized power in Paris, and created what we now know as the Paris Commune.

It was democratic, decentralized, and armed though at a more localized militia level. Workers could freely associate, public meetings were encouraged, public laws, education and finance were governed out of a central elective workers council. There was no Red Terror

After some weeks, it was crushed by the reactionary French army with most of the participates being executed but later Karl Marx and Frederick Engels went on to dub the Socialist & Democratic Commune as the best real-life form of the Marxist Dictatorship of the Proletariat seen up to the time.

So 3 questions:

1. What could the Commune have done politically to survive longer
2. What could the Commune have done militarily to survive longer
3. If it did indeed survive, how would this have changed the Communist Movement going forward?
 
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Hope for France to follow them.

Hope for the world revolution.

Hope for the Prussians to protect them some weeks longer.

No, in fact, the best work the Commune can achieve is to show the world how a communist society can work, at least politically; the experience gained can be used in later leftist revolutions.
 
Give a man some time please, one got to gather ones thoughts before writing.

Okay, from the top of my hat: 1) To survive longer, the commune would have to spread outside of Paris, or even just outside of the three to four Parisian suburbs it controlled. The popular sentiment was there, but somehow it kacked the spark to spread to other cities. So what was a Parisian popular uprising ends up being a strictly Parisian affair instead of a countrywide movement.

2) militarily? I doubt that there was anything the commune could have done militarily except for hoping that their cause gained so much traction that either it spread to the military or it became too widespread for the military to intervene.
3) prospects if the commune had survived: Probably not much...
 

TFSmith121

Banned
March on Versailles, which is where the "national" government

March on Versailles, which is where the "national" government had taken up residence.

Alistair Horne's The Fall of Paris: The Siege and the Commune, 1870-1 is pretty approachable.

Best,
 
March on Versailles, which is where the "national" government had taken up residence.

Alistair Horne's The Fall of Paris: The Siege and the Commune, 1870-1 is pretty approachable.

Best,

I love this.

Alas, if only they did.

I wonder though how friendly the new German Empire could have been if diplomatic overtures were made to Bismarck.

Enemy of mein Enemy...
 
I wonder though how friendly the new German Empire could have been if diplomatic overtures were made to Bismarck.

Enemy of mein Enemy...

..... is a radical socialist / communist dedicated to the overthrow of the German Monarchy and Junkers system.

I'll rather have the Republic anyday ;)
 
They wouldn't have done overtures to the German as the reason they started existing was precisely because they didn't want peace.

They did try to march on Versailles. It didn't go well. They marched past the Mont Valérien on the road to Versailles, hoping the militaries manning it wouldn't dare shoot them. That was a bad idea to say the least.
They had no military organisation, they were a band of civilians, some of them with guns, marching on entrenched troops.
Also, they lasted that long (less than two months) because the Prussians didn't bother.

That said, I don't wanna shoot down any potential idea. If they dig up in Paris and don't try to march out, make an independant army not completely under administrative control, with actual officers in charge, they have a chance to last longer and reach a settlement.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Not likely, but there was a moment, very early on,

I love this.

Alas, if only they did.

I wonder though how friendly the new German Empire could have been if diplomatic overtures were made to Bismarck.

Enemy of mein Enemy...

Not likely, but there was a moment, very early on, literally right after they'd seized City Hall, that one of the Communards who actually was a disaffected officer suggested marching out to Versailles and pursuing (IIRC) Thiers et al...

The rest basically turned him down. It is in Horne.

Later on, it was too late, as is pointed out.

Best,
 
They wouldn't have done overtures to the German as the reason they started existing was precisely because they didn't want peace.

They did try to march on Versailles. It didn't go well. They marched past the Mont Valérien on the road to Versailles, hoping the militaries manning it wouldn't dare shoot them. That was a bad idea to say the least.
They had no military organisation, they were a band of civilians, some of them with guns, marching on entrenched troops.
Also, they lasted that long (less than two months) because the Prussians didn't bother.

That said, I don't wanna shoot down any potential idea. If they dig up in Paris and don't try to march out, make an independant army not completely under administrative control, with actual officers in charge, they have a chance to last longer and reach a settlement.

I think Marx made the same critique. Also something about not seizing the Paris bank he said was a huge missed opportunity.

Either way, was there anything they could have done to garner more army support?

With Napoleon III being in custody I'm still surprised the french army didn't mutiny in the multiple factions, let alone communist.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, not summarily executing retired generals would have helped...

I think Marx made the same critique. Also something about not seizing the Paris bank he said was a huge missed opportunity.

Either way, was there anything they could have done to garner more army support?

With Napoleon III being in custody I'm still surprised the french army didn't mutiny in the multiple factions, let alone communist.


Well, not summarily executing retired generals would have helped...

Best,
 
I think Marx made the same critique. Also something about not seizing the Paris bank he said was a huge missed opportunity.

Either way, was there anything they could have done to garner more army support?

With Napoleon III being in custody I'm still surprised the french army didn't mutiny in the multiple factions, let alone communist.

They did seize the Bank but didn't take a penny out of it :)
If they had done so, it would have been very easy to paint them as thieves.

They didn't turn communists because nobody was communist, even among the communards, communistes were a tiny sliver of a fraction of a faction. At the heart of it, it was not a fight for equality or anything communistes, things like that were experimented (over the course of 30 days...) but that was a by product. At the heart of it, they wanted representation and they wanted to keep fighting. Also, when France had the first assembly, it was overwhelmingly monarchist. Only because there was infighting among the different branches did a new King not arrive.

For the Commune to succeed, I think you need Gambetta to succeed gathering an army and taking the fight to the prussians. I think it didn't work because he was half betrayed by one of his officers who didn't bother moving forward when he should have (to verify, source is biased and it's dinner time so I can't be bothered to search that again)

If he did, that would start the fight again and the communards would be seen as heroes rather than rebellious proletarian scum.

Seriously, Gambetta is epic, he flew a besieged Paris on a hot air balloon and gathered an army to fight off the invader. He's badass!
 
Why didn't the French Army Mutiny though?

In fact, there are some extremely stark similarities between 1917 Russia and 1871 France.

An authoritarian deposed (even worse, captured by the enemy)

Complete Economic Collapse

Complete State Collapse

It seem the sailors or officers were ripe for a red mutiny.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, if you accept the National Guards as part of the army,

Why didn't the French Army Mutiny though? In fact, there are some extremely stark similarities between 1917 Russia and 1871 France. An authoritarian deposed (even worse, captured by the enemy). Complete Economic Collapse. Complete State Collapse. It seem the sailors or officers were ripe for a red mutiny.

Well, if you accept the National Guards as part of the army, they did.

The Army per se was largely professional, however; conscription in peacetime/national service didn't really come in until after the FP War, I believe, other than for local emergency service.

There was also the Territorial/Garde Mobiles organization, which seems to have had more of a country/department focus; the anecdotes of Breton or Norman GMs remaining loyal to the national government are pretty frequent.

The Commune was centered in Paris; it was not a national rebellion, and - unlike in 1917, it came after a relatively short conventional war, not the grind of the Eastern Front for year after year.

And the "national" government, even absent the Second Empire types, remained; the Government of National Defence had a legitimacy, in a legalistic fashion, that the Commune never had ... and the Prussians were supportive of it, in a general sense - obviously, they wanted some sort of authority they could negotiate with, and the Communards were never willing to negotiate, much less had no legitimacy outside of the city.

Best,
 
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And the "national" government, even absent the Second Empire types, remained; the Government of National Defence had a legitimacy, in a legalistic fashion, that the Commune never had ... and the Prussians were supportive of it, in a general sense - obviously, they wanted some sort of authority they could negotiate with, and the Communards were never willing to negotiate, much less no legitimacy outside of the city.
This.

Why didn't the French Army Mutiny though? In fact, there are some extremely stark similarities between 1917 Russia and 1871 France. An authoritarian deposed (even worse, captured by the enemy). Complete Economic Collapse. Complete State Collapse. It seem the sailors or officers were ripe for a red mutiny.
Except you're not really right here. For the economic collapse I don't have the sources so I cannot say even though I don't think there was one but I am certain there was no state collapse.
There was a regime collapse, yes, a government collapse as well, but the State itself stood. They organised elections in the year and they were deemed fair enough, meaning the apparatus was still there. There was no eruption of violence as France is used to when the central state disappears. I do believe taxes were still being collected and fishing licenses handed over in every quarter of France that was not directly occupied by Prussia, so the majority of it.
Soldiers could have gone for a mutiny over the question of peace but didn't. Beside hierarchy obedience, I would blame the Commune which diverted the attention. Remember, the Commune was by parisians, for parisians. Parisians are not well liked in every other parts of France and even worse back then when the rural/urban divide was bigger :)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Merci, mon ami...

This.

Except you're not really right here. For the economic collapse I don't have the sources so I cannot say even though I don't think there was one but I am certain there was no state collapse.
There was a regime collapse, yes, a government collapse as well, but the State itself stood. They organised elections in the year and they were deemed fair enough, meaning the apparatus was still there. There was no eruption of violence as France is used to when the central state disappears. I do believe taxes were still being collected and fishing licenses handed over in every quarter of France that was not directly occupied by Prussia, so the majority of it.
Soldiers could have gone for a mutiny over the question of peace but didn't. Beside hierarchy obedience, I would blame the Commune which diverted the attention. Remember, the Commune was by parisians, for parisians. Parisians are not well liked in every other parts of France and even worse back then when the rural/urban divide was bigger :)

Merci, mon ami...

Best,
 
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