Best course of action for Nazi Germany as of Sept 1 1944 ?

[marathag]

Wow.

You think it didn't happen?

 

[Fletch]

You think it didn't happen?

Mass rape and looting were was perpetrated by the Red Army, just as it was perpetrated by the Germans in the Soviet Union(not to mention the rest of Europe) along with actions miles beyond the actions of the Red Army. Stating you would only allow the western allies in early in order "to prevent mass rape" comes across as the "Eastern subhuman scum" propaganda the Nazis came out with. This wouldn't be considered by the Western Allies as the Soviets at the time were allies and the goal was defeating the most evil regime of the 20th Century.

And to shock you, rapes and lootings were committed by the British and Americans as well.

In short it was phrased terribly.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Mass rape and looting were was perpetrated by the Red Army, just as it was perpetrated by the Germans in the Soviet Union(not to mention the rest of Europe) along with actions miles beyond the actions of the Red Army. Stating you would only allow the western allies in early in order "to prevent mass rape" comes across as the "Eastern subhuman scum" propaganda the Nazis came out with. This wouldn't be considered by the Western Allies as the Soviets at the time were allies and the goal was defeating the most evil regime of the 20th Century.

And to shock you, rapes and lootings were committed by the British and Americans as well.

In short it was phrased terribly.

The crimes committed by the Red Army against German civilians were an order of magnitude (or more likely two orders) greater than those committed by the Allied forces . And far less likely to be condemned by the senior officers or the Soviet government. After the behaviour of the Germans in Russia this is understandable- if not forgivable. War crimes breed war crimes. (I believe there were relatively few prisoners taken by British or Canadian troops when fighting SS formations as opposed to Wehrmacht ones.)

Fears of such revenge being wreaked on German civilians was a factor in Nazi thinking. Hence the wish to make peace with the Western Allies alone. Or, if that fails, to be occupied by them and not the Red Army. Or at least not by Soviet forces alone and especially not after they've suffered losses from hard fighting.

IF you believe my phrasing was clumsy or inappropriate, please feel free to report it. I'd be happy to abide by a Moderator's decision.

 

[Meshakhad]

Shoot Himmler, shoot Hitler, shoot themselves.

 

[Sam R.]

Three days after the capture of Berlin the Soviet commander in Berlin started shooting rapists. This was for three reasons: rape was reprehensible and held back the political development of soviet power in Berlin;
rape meant his troops were out of his control, the cardinal sin of command; and,
The fall back law of war in sieges stipulates three days rape only.

For comparison consider the disciplinary rape by western soldiers in Germany or Japan especially.

The “rape” access to abortion has been covered elsewhere. As has the difference specifically between frontoviks and secondliners and generally between combat arms and support.

 

[raharris1973]

If the Nazis wanted to sustain resistance on at least a portion of their pre war German territory as long as possible what would their best course of action after Sept 1 1944 have been ? I realize that eventually they would likely have been attacked by nuclear weapons if they resisted long enough but for the purposes of this thread I am assuming that the Nazis had no knowledge of the existence of nuclear weapons prior to their historical use. I also realize that surrendering earlier was likely a good plan for everyone expect the leadership who were likely facing war crimes trials.

The low hanging fruit would seem to be not proceeding with the historical Ardennes offensive and perhaps scaling back some of the historical counter offensives on the Eastern front and using the forces involved in those activities in other ways ? Any other ideas ? Maybe an earlier shift of forces and supplies from Norway to Germany (perhaps it might have been less risky to move forces and supplies by sea in the winter ?)

Send all the women and men under 30 to the western zones. That's about it.

 

[Bellacinos]

from what I remember of beevors book “Fall of Berlin” WAllies had about 14,000 cases of rape recorded from Normandy to Germany’s surrender while just the battle of Berlin had like 500,000 recorded cases from the red army, and obviously one is too many times but it seemed like this was an acceptable practice from top down leadership from the red army versus scattered cases from WAllies.

Not trying to justify the Soviets but basically every member of the red army had lost someone they love or cared about and wanted vengeance, so while not condoning this it makes sense their numbers would be way higher then the WAllies plus then being from a totalitarian state.

Also the WAllies would not want to do anything if Germany surrendered early because one of FDRs biggest reasons for giving the Russians a blank check was 1. Use them as a bartering ram against the Nazis 2. Secure Stalin’s help in invading Japan. FDR won’t do anything to double cross Stalin bc st this time the atomic bombs were far from ready. An early German surrender just means, A LOT less people die.