La Rouge Beret
Donor
For a TL that I am drafting at the moment, who in your opinion were the best counterintelligence specialists in the Cold War? Both Western, Communist and non alligned?
Best Counterintelligence service during the Cold War
- Thread starter La Rouge Beret
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Excuse me? I'm sorry but after the Cambridge Five and others the British aren't even in the running.
I wouldn't of thought so since they're special forces, not really involved in counter-intelligence - that's the Secret Intelligence Service internally and the Security Service's for the country as a whole job.
Well it's a lot easier to achieve when you're working in a closed country and don't have to worry about human rights or the rule of law to much degree. Even then they still had a fair number of spies working for the west and lost a fair number of high level defectors.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
It is a hard one MI - 5 had notorious problems with infiltrators.
The Stasi had an reasonable reputation but again their job was made easier as they were behind an iron curtain.
What about France, the FBI or some of the smaller powers such as the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain or Portugal?
The Stasi had an reasonable reputation but again their job was made easier as they were behind an iron curtain.
What about France, the FBI or some of the smaller powers such as the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain or Portugal?
Mossad was and is an excellent regional player in the game but very focussed. But so far as the Cold War goes, the major Counter Intelligence services with significant reach could be ranked something like (from most effective in descending order): KGB, MI-5, CIA, the East German GIA branch of the Stasi, the French DST, ....?
MI-5 cleaned up its act considerably & I think were not as compromised as the CIA was through the end of the Cold War and beyond. Aldrich Ames, anyone?
The best counter intelligence of today is no doubt my favorite barista, Carrie.
MI-5 cleaned up its act considerably & I think were not as compromised as the CIA was through the end of the Cold War and beyond. Aldrich Ames, anyone?
The best counter intelligence of today is no doubt my favorite barista, Carrie.
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The Mossad isn't really a counterintelligence agency; that would be their friends the Shabak (inevitably called the Shin Bet by foreigners for reasons I don't understand). And while the Shin Bet is and was excellent, I'm not sure it's fair to put them in the same league as everyone else: after all, no one was trying that hard to infiltrate Israel (at least none of the major players). My vote probably goes to the Stasi, who did very well with what they had (behind the Iron Curtain, yes, but also full of an awful lot of folks who took long "vacations in Hungary".
Thanks for the correction. In the West the two often get conflated.
Interestingly enough, it took the Wall for the Stasi to start becoming devastatingly effective. Before the Wall, East Germany was flooded by Western operatives which riddled E. German institutions. After the Wall came into being, the converse was true. West Germany intelligence and indeed the highest levels of government were at times totally compromised (perhaps coming to a head during the Brandt government in the 70s).
Interestingly enough, it took the Wall for the Stasi to start becoming devastatingly effective. Before the Wall, East Germany was flooded by Western operatives which riddled E. German institutions. After the Wall came into being, the converse was true. West Germany intelligence and indeed the highest levels of government were at times totally compromised (perhaps coming to a head during the Brandt government in the 70s).
All that quote does is show that it's called the Shin Bet by foreigners. I have literally never heard it referred to here in Israel as anything aside from the Shabak, or more rarely by its full name.
Interesting. Did the BRD attempt any kind of immigration control? If not, that might be the reason: the Wall blocked Western operators from entering the East but not vice-versa.
But to what extent were they effective at finding and stopping enemy agents? The FBI's problem, in my opinion, is that they are fundamentally a law enforcement agency and not a counter-intelligence service. It's a different task and a completely different mentality.
Yes--- things were muddled by the different occupation zones of control & the Soviets and West "sorting" things out in their new "playground". I think the BRD was slower initially than the FRG in establishing new institutions. They may have been hindered by Soviet occupation policies at the time.
Oh? How about Israel Bar, the almost-got-to-be-2nd-in-command-of-the-IDF-while-a Russian-spy? There were others as well. The fact that people don't remember them is either because it's too fun to talk about the cool stuff the Mossad did at the time, or because the rest of them are still in a dark cell somewhere. The Shabak deserves alot of credit for the stuff it did, most of it will forever remain unknown, at a time when both the US and the USSR were dropping spooks in Israel like mad.
BTW, the reason people mix up is because the order Ben Gurion gave the army was to establish a Security Service (Shirot Bitachon - Shin Bet), and three weeks later the army's order wrote General Security Service (Shirot Bitachon Klali - Shabak).
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La Rouge Beret
Donor
The reason that I ask is for my realistic Cobra timeline that I am drafting.
After thinking about his behaviour I view Cobra Commander as a former spy and certainly a businessman with how he runs the organisation.
At this stage I have changed his origin to an undetermined South American country, where after studying business in the United States becomes involved in their secret service spending a period of time with country x.
After thinking about his behaviour I view Cobra Commander as a former spy and certainly a businessman with how he runs the organisation.
At this stage I have changed his origin to an undetermined South American country, where after studying business in the United States becomes involved in their secret service spending a period of time with country x.
Dude, I just looked up Israel Bar; that's pretty cool. Though he was high in the Ministry of Defense, not he IDF, according to wiki (semantics, I know). You also have to admit it's difficult to uncover a Soviet agent whose cover is coming to your country before it's founded and joining a (large and popular) pro-USSR political party.
Well I did say he almost got to be 2nd in command
. IIRC Dayan once noted how odd it is that despite the mans claims of military experience in Spain during the civil war, and his vast knowledge of military history, tactics and strategy, he couldn't hold a rifle to save his life. Nor could any other veteran of the Spanish civil war in Israel recognise him. This was the reason he ended up as head of history division and was discharged later, instead of promoted to higher office in the IDF. Anyway I think that the charachter the OP is trying to build could use some time in Israel during the 50's (unless it's too far back?) and 60's. Those were realy the days for counterintelligence.
The Stasi
The Stasi had the local population so well penetrated with informers and agents, they practically had the entire country under observation. From a visit to the Stasi museum in Berlin, the estimate was something like 1 in 10 (or higher) was either a member of, or an informant for the Stasi. This even impressed the KGB back in the day.
As for the British? Couldn't find a spy even if they walked around London naked holding a banner with a red star on it saying KGB spy.
The Stasi had the local population so well penetrated with informers and agents, they practically had the entire country under observation. From a visit to the Stasi museum in Berlin, the estimate was something like 1 in 10 (or higher) was either a member of, or an informant for the Stasi. This even impressed the KGB back in the day.
As for the British? Couldn't find a spy even if they walked around London naked holding a banner with a red star on it saying KGB spy.
La Rouge Beret
Donor
Yes I should define the time period from mid 1970's to late 1980's, so Cobra in the post Cold War period.