Best Case scenario for the Axis AFTER American entry

Basically, all you ppl have done is kill much more Axis soldiers and civillians and have a humiliating defeat with a couple of nukes involved. I dont know what you ppl think "best case scenario" is, but this does not qualify as such im my book.

A "best case scenario" would be better terms after the war, or a peace treaty of somesort, some kind of wankish survival of the Axis and them having some power.
 

Bearcat

Banned
Basically, all you ppl have done is kill much more Axis soldiers and civillians and have a humiliating defeat with a couple of nukes involved. I dont know what you ppl think "best case scenario" is, but this does not qualify as such im my book.

A "best case scenario" would be better terms after the war, or a peace treaty of somesort, some kind of wankish survival of the Axis and them having some power.

There is NO such scenario that doesn't run, not walk, to the ASB section.

Any reasonable TL is going to end with Germany and Japan screwed. It was a no-win scenario for both.

My best for Germany is Hitler gets couped in 1938, but that doesn't fit the starting time range. Hitler deposed in 1944 and the Wehrmacht sues for peace is better than OTL but Germany will have to accept occupation to get peace from the Allies. Its a stretch.
 
There is NO such scenario that doesn't run, not walk, to the ASB section.

Any reasonable TL is going to end with Germany and Japan screwed. It was a no-win scenario for both.

My best for Germany is Hitler gets couped in 1938, but that doesn't fit the starting time range. Hitler deposed in 1944 and the Wehrmacht sues for peace is better than OTL but Germany will have to accept occupation to get peace from the Allies. Its a stretch.

A POD that will change the political composition of the Allies may give them a chance. I mean, the whole point of AH is to change things around...;)
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
A POD that will change the political composition of the Allies may give them a chance. I mean, the whole point of AH is to change things around...;)


Problem is the original post makes it pretty clear that everything is status quo until the U.S. entering the war.

At that point Italy is dead, just not aware of it yet, Japan has been SOL for almost a year in a war on the Asian mainland that it can neither lose nor withdraw from, and Hitler has thrown himself into a pile of burning Christmas Trees while dipped in AvGas.
 
Problem is the original post makes it pretty clear that everything is status quo until the U.S. entering the war.

At that point Italy is dead, just not aware of it yet, Japan has been SOL for almost a year in a war on the Asian mainland that it can neither lose nor withdraw from, and Hitler has thrown himself into a pile of burning Christmas Trees while dipped in AvGas.

Well, yeah. I was just speaking generally.
 
Best Case Scenario: Axis Conditional Surrender against the Western Allies alone in 1943, after Calbear's Pacific War Redux utterly shafts the Japanese but the Germans are able to batter the Soviet Union badly enough that it is never able to drive the Germans off their soil. Fortunately, an Anti-Hitler coup in Germany succeeds, and is followed with a conditional surrender that screws the Soviets but leaves Germany a mostly unified democratic state with much less damage from bombing raids and other damage.

Japan's militant PM Tojo Hideki is forced to resign after presiding after terrible defeats, and Hirohito breaks his silence to demand his government sue for peace--again, with the Western Allies and not with the Soviet Union. Japan thus keeps the Kuril Islands and half of Sakhalin.

The best thing to do for the Axis Powers in WW2 is to have them lose faster, in a way that keeps more of their men alive but still discredits their evil ideas. Germany, Japan and much of the minor axis don't need Stalinist Terror or Secret Police to "learn their lesson", and a shorter war will cause them less economic hardship and losses of civilians. So, I suggest a WW2 that ends around the Spring of 1944, with the Soviets stuck at the Dnieper, Novgorod, and Murmansk. The Western Allies simply MUST return Leningrad to the Soviet Union, but the minor Eastern European Axis are spared Soviet Strongmen.

Best Case Scenario is, counter intuitively, Allied Wank 100%. I dare anyone here to suggest a better outcome for Germany, Japan, Eastern Europe and Italy than to avoid Soviet Domination, ensure integration into the NATO and later EU blocs and get aid from the Marshall Plan, have perhaps three million people still alive who would have otherwise died, and keep some of their historical (although not WW2 related) territorial positions. Germany keeps West Prussia and Japan keeps the Kurils and half of Sakhalin.
 

Tellus

Banned
What if the US gives up on Manhattan? A huge blunder, key scientists die, a few politicos change their mind about the cost and the feasibility?

Should that happen, coupled with a German victory on the eastern front (Caucasus falls, then Moscow in late 43), and Stalin decides to sue for peace on terms sufficiently generous for Berlin to accept?

From there on, the western allies know their chances of a conventional victory in Europe with Germany's attention focused on the defense of the westfall is low - or possibly try and fail. Then Churchill dies in an accident, or an "accident", and the west ends up negotiating a settlement.

Thats alot of IFs, but I figure a "best case" may involve more than one POD.
 
What if the US gives up on Manhattan? A huge blunder, key scientists die, a few politicos change their mind about the cost and the feasibility?

Should that happen, coupled with a German victory on the eastern front (Caucasus falls, then Moscow in late 43), and Stalin decides to sue for peace on terms sufficiently generous for Berlin to accept?

From there on, the western allies know their chances of a conventional victory in Europe with Germany's attention focused on the defense of the westfall is low - or possibly try and fail. Then Churchill dies in an accident, or an "accident", and the west ends up negotiating a settlement.

Thats alot of IFs, but I figure a "best case" may involve more than one POD.

Outcome:

Japan is going down in a longer, harder war, they probably suffer a net loss.

Three Way Cold War likely to end with a Soviet-German Nuclear Exchange.
Even if nuclear war is avoided (which we'd have to assume, although I think Nazi Germany might be so insane as to press the buttons, or an abused Soviet Union so hateful), Germany is committed to things like slavery, the politicization and indoctrination of its science and schools. In the long haul, things are going to Suck for Germany with a Capital S.

I can't see Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union ever forming any kind of lasting peace after Barbarossa, and I think a rematch with nuclear weapons is in the cards. It may well be the Soviets who acquire the atomic bomb first, and once they do they'll make good on Stalin's vow for a war of annihilation.

So, basically, this scenario will logically lead to a Soviet-German rematch, and in all likelihood, massive sunburn casualties. In the long run, Nazi Germany is going to be far inferior to Germany losing WW2--if the nukes fly, Germany is going to be essentially a third world country; if they don't it'll be somewhat worse than the Soviet Union. Both choices are going to hurt them far worse than simply losing WW2 ever did.
 
There is NO such scenario that doesn't run, not walk, to the ASB section.

Any reasonable TL is going to end with Germany and Japan screwed. It was a no-win scenario for both.

My best for Germany is Hitler gets couped in 1938, but that doesn't fit the starting time range. Hitler deposed in 1944 and the Wehrmacht sues for peace is better than OTL but Germany will have to accept occupation to get peace from the Allies. Its a stretch.

Then this automatically isnt the "best case scenario". It should be called "how to make the war in Europe even more destructive" or "defeat the Axis sooner".

And who says that if Tom Cruise killes Hitler that the occupation coudlnt be avoided. Heavy peace terms yes, but nowere NEAR as bad as OTL post-war Germany.
 
Japan doesn't have a 'best case'; they are just plain screwed.
Germany could try and cut a deal with the Allies before Tehran, but I doubt it'd go over very well.
The Italians would have the best chance of a best case, and that would be by changing sides shortly after Operation Torch.
 
Best Case Scenario: Axis Conditional Surrender against the Western Allies alone in 1943, after Calbear's Pacific War Redux utterly shafts the Japanese but the Germans are able to batter the Soviet Union badly enough that it is never able to drive the Germans off their soil. Fortunately, an Anti-Hitler coup in Germany succeeds, and is followed with a conditional surrender that screws the Soviets but leaves Germany a mostly unified democratic state with much less damage from bombing raids and other damage.

Japan's militant PM Tojo Hideki is forced to resign after presiding after terrible defeats, and Hirohito breaks his silence to demand his government sue for peace--again, with the Western Allies and not with the Soviet Union. Japan thus keeps the Kuril Islands and half of Sakhalin.

The best thing to do for the Axis Powers in WW2 is to have them lose faster, in a way that keeps more of their men alive but still discredits their evil ideas. Germany, Japan and much of the minor axis don't need Stalinist Terror or Secret Police to "learn their lesson", and a shorter war will cause them less economic hardship and losses of civilians. So, I suggest a WW2 that ends around the Spring of 1944, with the Soviets stuck at the Dnieper, Novgorod, and Murmansk. The Western Allies simply MUST return Leningrad to the Soviet Union, but the minor Eastern European Axis are spared Soviet Strongmen.

Best Case Scenario is, counter intuitively, Allied Wank 100%. I dare anyone here to suggest a better outcome for Germany, Japan, Eastern Europe and Italy than to avoid Soviet Domination, ensure integration into the NATO and later EU blocs and get aid from the Marshall Plan, have perhaps three million people still alive who would have otherwise died, and keep some of their historical (although not WW2 related) territorial positions. Germany keeps West Prussia and Japan keeps the Kurils and half of Sakhalin.
I actually suspect you are right.
 

Bearcat

Banned
Then this automatically isnt the "best case scenario". It should be called "how to make the war in Europe even more destructive" or "defeat the Axis sooner".

And who says that if Tom Cruise killes Hitler that the occupation coudlnt be avoided. Heavy peace terms yes, but nowere NEAR as bad as OTL post-war Germany.

The best case for Germany has to include:

1. Shorter war with less time for utter ruin of cities.

2. Nazis get hung from lampposts.

3. Occupation of Germany which is not too heavy-handed, which eases Germany towards modern model of the country.

4. No Soviet domination of eastern Germany or even Poland.

Remember: Nazis winning is the WORST case scenario for Germans (as well as very difficult).
 
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Bearcat

Banned
Best Case Scenario: Axis Conditional Surrender against the Western Allies alone in 1943, after Calbear's Pacific War Redux utterly shafts the Japanese but the Germans are able to batter the Soviet Union badly enough that it is never able to drive the Germans off their soil. Fortunately, an Anti-Hitler coup in Germany succeeds, and is followed with a conditional surrender that screws the Soviets but leaves Germany a mostly unified democratic state with much less damage from bombing raids and other damage.

Japan's militant PM Tojo Hideki is forced to resign after presiding after terrible defeats, and Hirohito breaks his silence to demand his government sue for peace--again, with the Western Allies and not with the Soviet Union. Japan thus keeps the Kuril Islands and half of Sakhalin.

The best thing to do for the Axis Powers in WW2 is to have them lose faster, in a way that keeps more of their men alive but still discredits their evil ideas. Germany, Japan and much of the minor axis don't need Stalinist Terror or Secret Police to "learn their lesson", and a shorter war will cause them less economic hardship and losses of civilians. So, I suggest a WW2 that ends around the Spring of 1944, with the Soviets stuck at the Dnieper, Novgorod, and Murmansk. The Western Allies simply MUST return Leningrad to the Soviet Union, but the minor Eastern European Axis are spared Soviet Strongmen.

Best Case Scenario is, counter intuitively, Allied Wank 100%. I dare anyone here to suggest a better outcome for Germany, Japan, Eastern Europe and Italy than to avoid Soviet Domination, ensure integration into the NATO and later EU blocs and get aid from the Marshall Plan, have perhaps three million people still alive who would have otherwise died, and keep some of their historical (although not WW2 related) territorial positions. Germany keeps West Prussia and Japan keeps the Kurils and half of Sakhalin.

QFT. Bravo.
 
They did specify an AXIS victory, so the above is kinda moot. A meteorite hitting DC with Congress and Senate and the full administration in session, along with Moscow, while unlikely to say the least, could help a bit.
 
The best case for Germany has to include:

1. Shorter war with less time for utter ruin of cities.

2. Nazis get hung from lampposts.

3. Occupation of Germany which is not too heavy-handed, which eases Germany towards modern model of the country.

4. No Soviet domination of eastern Germany or even Poland.

Remember: Nazis winning is the WORST case scenario for Germans (as well as very difficult).

Basically, at this point the Axis could only win if they somehow managed to get modern (and maybe even futuristic) weapons and an extra 6 million soldiers.

I never mantioned them winning, but the "best case scenario" would be sth like what you said, and that means a peace treaty of somesort that does not desintegrate Germany into war-scorched occupation zones.
 
It was literally impossible for Japan and/or Germany to win WW2. By all accounts, to make the war last 6 years was a combination of extreme luck and incredible perseverence, aided by a sometimes catastrophically incompetent enemy.
 
They did specify an AXIS victory, so the above is kinda moot. A meteorite hitting DC with Congress and Senate and the full administration in session, along with Moscow, while unlikely to say the least, could help a bit.
Nope, the OP asked for "Best Case scenario for the Axis AFTER American entry". Didn't actually say anything about a victory. They weren't going to get one, so the best case is probably to lose fast.
 
One sorta-backwards best case might have been if the Air Ministry and the USAAF had been rather more competant at what they claimed was their reason for existance - strategic bombing.
If they'd actualy been able to deliver more consistent targetting on the big chemical and oil plants, and the transport network, German arm production would have collapsed earlier with far fewer people killed in the cities.

A lose, but a much better lose...:)
 
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