Best case scenario for mid-east

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The land was purchased lawfully, but the owners from which the land was acquired weren't always resident on said land.

It was purchased lawfully only because the British made expropriation of communal land lawful. There were some normal purchases of privately-held land from Arab absentee landlords, but that's not what is objectionable. That at least didn't destroy communities.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

That is simply not true. Where can you prove that? What sources are you using?

I for one, know from personal experience. My father made many trips to Israel when he was a farmer in Africa because the Israelis were cutting edge innovators in drip irrigation; something he needed in South Africa's arid climate.

What is not true? That the Mid East would be famine-ridden if Israel wasn't there? What proof do you want? Israel doesn't feed the Mid East.

Agricultural technology is not rocket science - there is nothing in Israel that can't be accomplished anywhere else by throwing money at it, which the oil countries now have.

Saudi Arabia has made gigantic strides in agricultural development despite its much, much harsher terrain. Despite all the "making the desert bloom" rhetoric, Palestine was always "lush" by Mid East standards.

 

[Wendell]

But if you don't believe that, then what are Palestinians? Arabs?

I'll explain my rationale here.

If the Palestinians are a specific people, then yes, their homeland has been expropriated.

If they are not, then it's easy to see how the creation of Israel has had traumatic effects on the Arabic world.

The fact is, the Arab world has had traumatic effects on the Arab world. Palestinians are merely Arabs who are oppressed by other Arabs, and pushed to quarrel with the State of Israel.

 

[Wendell]

It was purchased lawfully only because the British made expropriation of communal land lawful. There were some normal purchases of privately-held land from Arab absentee landlords, but that's not what is objectionable. That at least didn't destroy communities.

Then don't blame on Israel that which was the fault of the British.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Then don't blame on Israel that which was the fault of the British.

Whatever. You don't really seem to know the details of the history, and are more interested in one-liner apologetics for Israel, which you seem to believe is some peaceful little nation that has just sat around minding it's business. It's just bull, and if you're not actually going to support your arguments, why are you bothering to post?

If I leave the keys to my car on the hood and someone steals it, I may be an idiot, but that doesn't change the fact that whomever stole it is a thief.

Besides which the Zionists did not limit themselves to land purchases, but employed terrorism and intimidation. Googke "Irgun" and "Lehi".

 

[Keenir]

The fact is, the Arab world has had traumatic effects on the Arab world. Palestinians are merely Arabs who are oppressed by other Arabs, and pushed to quarrel with the State of Israel.

oh yes, because they'd have no arguments with Israel if it weren't for those Evil Foreign Arabs.

 

[Wendell]

oh yes, because they'd have no arguments with Israel if it weren't for those Evil Foreign Arabs.

It's my my fault that most of the Arab states have acted with hostility towards the State of Israel continually from 1948.

 

[Wendell]

Whatever. You don't really seem to know the details of the history, and are more interested in one-liner apologetics for Israel, which you seem to believe is some peaceful little nation that has just sat around minding it's business. It's just bull, and if you're not actually going to support your arguments, why are you bothering to post?

You're the one who could not counter the essence of the point I made that the Jews acquired these lands legally.

If I leave the keys to my car on the hood and someone steals it, I may be an idiot, but that doesn't change the fact that whomever stole it is a thief.

But is it the fault of the Jews that the British sold to them your stolen keys?

Besides which the Zionists did not limit themselves to land purchases, but employed terrorism and intimidation. Googke "Irgun" and "Lehi".

I am familiar with those groups. As you ought to know, the perpetrators in question were punished for their actions.

 

[Faeelin]

The fact is, the Arab world has had traumatic effects on the Arab world. Palestinians are merely Arabs who are oppressed by other Arabs, and pushed to quarrel with the State of Israel.

Pushed? I suppose I'd be pushed to oppose the people who set up a nation where I lived too.

I stand by my analogy to the aftermath of Versailles.

I don't think Israel's the only problem with the middle east, and I think we're stuck with it, but I think it'd have been better off it it was never there.

 

[Wendell]

Pushed? I suppose I'd be pushed to oppose the people who set up a nation where I lived too.

I stand by my analogy to the aftermath of Versailles.

I don't think Israel's the only problem with the middle east, and I think we're stuck with it, but I think it'd have been better off it it was never there.

I agree that the way the borders were determined in the U.N. partitition proposal were absurd and incapable of being effective. Something closer to the Peel Commission proposal would have been better.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Lebanon's problems go far beyond its relations with Israel.

That's a dodge. Only Israel could get away with destabilizing a neighboring country by expelling hundreds of thousands of refugees from its own territory, invading the country three times, occupying a large part of it for nearly two decades, and periodically bombing civilian infrastructure and otherwise destroying the place as it pleases, and only its apologists would make the claim that Israel isn't responsible for its problems. The Palestinian issue was the direct catalyst for the Civil War. Even Hezbollah, which is Lebanon's biggest headache, was a direct product of the Israeli occupation of the south.

I think it's no coincidence that Lebanon is the weakest of all Israel's neighbors, and it is the one that has suffered the most at the hands of Israel.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

So? We've "legally" raped and destroyed Iraq - that doesn't make it right. If you are going to use power to make something immoral legal, then you should expect a violent response.

You're the one who could not counter the essence of the point I made that the Jews acquired these lands legally.

But is it the fault of the Jews that the British sold to them your stolen keys?

I am familiar with those groups. As you ought to know, the perpetrators in question were punished for their actions.

 

[Keenir]

But is it the fault of the Jews that the British sold to them your stolen keys?

would not a good citizen return the keys to the person they were stolen from?

 

[Kang Seung Jae]

How can we get the best scenario for the mid-east. By my definition with liberalism and democracy dominant, and conservatism and islamic radicalism minority movements with little influence. Should be mostly first world(comparitively to other nations) by 2000 ad, without oil being the sole tenant of the economy. A few failed states are acceptable, but in general the mideast should be prosperous rather then the mess that it is now.

I don't agree with you on the definition of "best" scenario.

 

[orbeyonde]

When did this forum turn into kozkids?

I love how the jews are held up to a standard that no one else on the planet is held up to or even expected to hold up to.

There were jews living in Mecca. As soon as the Sauds turn over parts of the city back for jewish residents, the Israelis should give some of their land back to the palestinians.

As soon as Yemen welcomes back all of the jews they kicked out in 48, the Israleis should acknowledge the right of return. The same goes for Syria, Egypt and all the other Arab countires that kicked 1 million jews out in the 40s and 50s.

 

[HueyLong]

The land was purchased lawfully, but the owners from which the land was acquired weren't always resident on said land.

No country in the world operates on the anarcho-communist ideal of "use-own". The fact that the owners of the land did not live there really does not matter.

Oh, come now. This assumes that the people who sold the land actually owned it; that documents weren't forged; and so on and so forth.

I don't know enough about the situation in the region under Britain to comment but I am somewhat dubious that it's as clearcut as you make it out to be.

Now who's being emotional? Those poor Arabs, cheated at every turn, threatened to give up the whole of Palestine.

No, most of the initial settlement of Palestine was orderly and lawful. While there may have been some intimidation or corruption, it was far from being the norm.

It was purchased lawfully only because the British made expropriation of communal land lawful. There were some normal purchases of privately-held land from Arab absentee landlords, but that's not what is objectionable. That at least didn't destroy communities.

Gating the Commons should obviously be undone in England, and we should obviously restore the rights of all those Yorkshire men who left the Woolen Provinces behind. So, much of East Coast America gets those sheep-raising places now, right?

Communal property was, for the most part, either not legally recognized at all or gradually phased out over much of the modern world. It was actually needed to increase agricultural productivity.

Look at the Tragedy of the Commons.

An Arab government would have abolished communal property, as has happened to a degree all over the Middle east. In fact, many of them did just that (Communal property was being restricted and sold off under King Faisal.)

If I leave the keys to my car on the hood and someone steals it, I may be an idiot, but that doesn't change the fact that whomever stole it is a thief.

Besides which the Zionists did not limit themselves to land purchases, but employed terrorism and intimidation. Googke "Irgun" and "Lehi".

You're using two fringe groups that were later dissociated with the mainstream Zionists. But if anyone suggests that the Young Turks had genocidal tendencies or that the Ottomans had religious fanatics, you throw a fit.

The Irgun and Lehi were far from the norm in Zionism.

 

[Keenir]

kozkids?

*blank look* eh?

As soon as Yemen welcomes back all of the jews they kicked out in 48, the Israleis should acknowledge the right of return. The same goes for Syria, Egypt and all the other Arab countires that kicked 1 million jews out in the 40s and 50s.

Except that this would turn Israel into a ghost town (ghost nation? ghost state?)....and the US would never permit such a thing!

 

[Keenir]

You're using two fringe groups that were later dissociated with the mainstream Zionists. But if anyone suggests that the Young Turks had genocidal tendencies or that the Ottomans had religious fanatics, you throw a fit.

Understandably so -- the Ottomans didn't have religious fanatics...the Ottoman Empire did (Wahabis, various Christians groups, possibly a few Sufi orders).

and how many times must we disprove this fantasy of "the genocidal Young Turks"?

The Irgun and Lehi were far from the norm in Zionism.

but they were part of Zionism....you'd have to reach back to Selim "the Grim" to find any remotely analagous Ottoman.

 

[HueyLong]

About the time you guys disprove the Armenian genocide, the pogroms against the Greeks, the discrimination against Kurds and oh yeah, the simple trend of nationalist secular fanaticism that was started by the Young Turks. Those weren't even the fringe parts of that movement.

 

[Keenir]

About the time you guys disprove the Armenian genocide, the pogroms against the Greeks, the discrimination against Kurds and oh yeah, the simple trend of nationalist secular fanaticism that was started by the Young Turks.

despite its length, that sentance feels like a sentance fragment.


what would you take as proof of no Armenian Genocide? (a hand-written note by an Armenian, saying "dang we fooled you guys; we were joshing about that whole genocide thing")

pogroms against the Greeks? when? the Greeks had pogroms against the Turks, certainly (and not just on Cyprus, either)

discrimination against Kurds? gee, ask a Brit how he feels/felt about the IRA.

Those weren't even the fringe parts of that movement.

fringe parts of which movement? each of those was separate. (unless you're saying the Greeks masterminded the Armenian Genocide and the Kurdish terrorism)