Best case scenario for mid-east

[Wendell]

Anywhere else legal purchases of land from legal owners is unremarkable. When it is done to create Israel, it becomes a crime in the views of many.

It's the same with any war. Many seem to have a problem with Israel gaining land as a result of wars won. Yet, many of these same folks have no problem with other countries annexing lands acquired from victory in some war.

 

[Faeelin]

It's the same with any war. Many seem to have a problem with Israel gaining land as a result of wars won. Yet, many of these same folks have no problem with other countries annexing lands acquired from victory in some war.

That's an interesting assumption.

Anyway, I can abstain from judging the morality of Israel's victories while still recognizing that its existence is traumatic to the nations of the region.

 

[Faeelin]

Anywhere else legal purchases of land from legal owners is unremarkable. When it is done to create Israel, it becomes a crime in the views of many.

Oh, come now. This assumes that the people who sold the land actually owned it; that documents weren't forged; and so on and so forth.

I don't know enough about the situation in the region under Britain to comment but I am somewhat dubious that it's as clearcut as you make it out to be.

 

[Wendell]

That's an interesting assumption.

Anyway, I can abstain from judging the morality of Israel's victories while still recognizing that its existence is traumatic to the nations of the region.

The existence of Israel has no practical effect on stifling the potential of its Arab neighbors. Israel serves as a convenient excuse for Arab "leaders" to suppress their own populations. It is telling that the only country where any Palestinian Muslim has a vote is in Israel.

 

[Wendell]

Oh, come now. This assumes that the people who sold the land actually owned it; that documents weren't forged; and so on and so forth.

I don't know enough about the situation in the region under Britain to comment but I am somewhat dubious that it's as clearcut as you make it out to be.

The process was legal on the Jewish end, but if there was fraud, it was perpetuated by Arabs against Arabs.

 

[Leo Caesius]

That's an interesting assumption.

That's precisely why, throughout the 20th century, no country has ever lifted a finger when another nation was occupied and annexed by a neighbor.

The existence of Israel has no practical effect on stifling the potential of its Arab neighbors. Israel serves as a convenient excuse for Arab "leaders" to suppress their own populations. It is telling that the only country where any Palestinian Muslim has a vote is in Israel.

The only part of this that is true is the fact that Israel serves as a convenient excuse. There are Palestinians throughout the Arab world and many of them have been fully naturalized. The refugees and the guestworkers in the Gulf States are the exceptions. And ask the Lebanese whether Israel has stifled their potential or not.

 

[Keenir]

Which was destroyed by the Ottoman Empire. By basing real estate taxes on the number of trees, they caused an economic incentive to desertify the region.

tiny question -- if that's true, why were Ottoman forests pumping out ships and timbers like there was no tomorrow for five centuries....and lumber became a problem after there were no Ottomans?

your statement is analagous to blaming the American Indian for the extinction of the Passenger Pigeon.

 

[Faeelin]

The process was legal on the Jewish end, but if there was fraud, it was perpetuated by Arabs against Arabs.

This is a pretty blanket statement, which makes me a little dubious.

 

[Keenir]

Anywhere else legal purchases of land from legal owners is unremarkable. When it is done to create Israel, it becomes a crime in the views of many.

very well....I'm holding a gun aimed at you. either I can pay you two bullets in your brainpan, or you can give me your land for free.

how exactly is that legal?

 

[Faeelin]

The existence of Israel has no practical effect on stifling the potential of its Arab neighbors. Israel serves as a convenient excuse for Arab "leaders" to suppress their own populations. It is telling that the only country where any Palestinian Muslim has a vote is in Israel.

So you feel that Palestinians are a distinct nationality whose homeland has been occupied by Israel?

 

[Keenir]

It's the same with any war. Many seem to have a problem with Israel gaining land as a result of wars won. Yet, many of these same folks have no problem with other countries annexing lands acquired from victory in some war.

when the US annexed land from other countries, the annexed land had a good chance of actually becoming part of the US (or let go as a friendly state).

when Israel annexes land, it remains occupied territory without legal rights for decades.

 

[Keenir]

It is telling that the only country where any Palestinian Muslim has a vote is in Israel.

hm...you want to tell the current or prior Queen of Jordan that her voice doesn't count for anything?

 

[Wendell]

That's precisely why, throughout the 20th century, no country has ever lifted a finger when another nation was occupied and annexed by a neighbor.
The only part of this that is true is the fact that Israel serves as a convenient excuse. There are Palestinians throughout the Arab world and many of them have been fully naturalized. The refugees and the guestworkers in the Gulf States are the exceptions. And ask the Lebanese whether Israel has stifled their potential or not.

Lebanon's problems go far beyond its relations with Israel.

 

[Wendell]

So you feel that Palestinians are a distinct nationality whose homeland has been occupied by Israel?

Actually, I don't. However, if one was to make that case, then clearly, a Palestinian homeland already exists in the form of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

 

[Wendell]

when the US annexed land from other countries, the annexed land had a good chance of actually becoming part of the US (or let go as a friendly state).

when Israel annexes land, it remains occupied territory without legal rights for decades.

That would explain Jerusalem, or the gains made in the 1948 war

So, you are suggesting that Israel should colonize the West Bank and Jordan?

 

[Keenir]

That would explain Jerusalem,

one city. part of the whole reason for the Jewish State in the first place.

So, you are suggesting that Israel should colonize the West Bank and Jordan?

respectively, it's already doing that, and I don't think even the US would allow that.

 

[Wendell]

one city. part of the whole reason for the Jewish State in the first place.

That explains the other gains I mentioned...

respectively, it's already doing that, and I don't think even the US would allow that.

That explains the dismantling of settlements in Gaza, and the West Bank. Also, Kordan is still a free and sovereign state.

 

[Faeelin]

Actually, I don't. However, if one was to make that case, then clearly, a Palestinian homeland already exists in the form of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

But if you don't believe that, then what are Palestinians? Arabs?

I'll explain my rationale here.

If the Palestinians are a specific people, then yes, their homeland has been expropriated.

If they are not, then it's easy to see how the creation of Israel has had traumatic effects on the Arabic world.

 

[Keenir]

That explains the dismantling of settlements in Gaza, and the West Bank.

...while building even more settlements in the West Bank.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Which was destroyed by the Ottoman Empire. By basing real estate taxes on the number of trees, they caused an economic incentive to desertify the region.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The Ottomans built up the irrigation systems, they didn't destroy them. The only trees subject to taxation were date palms, which were already located in arid places.