Berthier at Waterloo

Redbeard

Banned
But could they coordinate their forces well enough to concentrate on Napoleon when he was alone, or on his subordinates? I would also like to point out that Davout is probably the best general of the Napoleonic wars. It will be harder trapping and killing him than it was against, say, Ney. In fact, if the allies try to replay the 1813 campaigns, they will get bloodied against him fairly quickly. And if they try to replay 1814 instead, I see the eagle rising again. In that case, the seperated allied armies, each hungry for glory, would be in danger of Napoleon cuting them off and cutting them up.

You're dreaming. Since 1806 Napoleon hadn't seriously cut any army up, but in this ATL he will need Jena-Auerstedt, Ulm or Austerlitz victories in close succession to prevail.

Actually, I am not. I was refering to the German campaigns of 1813, which included Leipzig. If it came out wrong, my apologies, but the point stands. Napoleon with his cavalry is much more dangerous than Napoleon without it.

Of course Napoleon with cavalry is more dangerous than Napoleon without, but he obviously wasn't dangerous enough in autumn of 1813, when he had a full complement of cavalry, much of it Guard.

I beg to differ. As one example, the allies who had just recieved over 150,000 reinforcements to 14,000 French, were unable to truly defeat the french. To quote wikipedia:


And if the allies could not gain a decisive advantage over Napoleon until the bridge was destroyed, I would not say that they were running it. So claiming that the allies will crush Napoleon in a rerun of the battle is a little rash.

Regards,

Atreus

Please Atreus, Wikipedia alone will not convince many on this board. It is OK to get an overview or to start a closer investigation, buy anyway your quote doesn't negate that Napoleon was forced to leave not only the battlefield (classical definition of defeat) but Germany for good (a decisive strategic defeat). On the 1813 and 1814 campaigns I especially will recommend works from before 1850, von Sporschill is one good example that comes to memory, but you will need to read German incl. gothic writing.

That the allies did not overrun the main French force was perhaps becausze they did not intend to. The allied strategy was one of cautiously applying ever more force until breaking the enemy, and not risking to be caught out on a limp. They had tried that several times but now knew very well that caution paid off vs. Napoleon. In many ways the allied stratgey in late Napoleon wars are similar to those of the allied in WWII, and Schwarzenberg's job similar to that of Eisenhower. And like Blitzkrieg being a blunted weapon by late WWII Napoleon's earlier monopoly on permanent armycorps, march separately and strike united etc. was broken by 1809.

If you like to think of Napoleon winning Leipzig it is OK for me, and had the allied command been less keen in their cautious determination, he might have had a chance, but as it was it was a very minor chance. Perhaps if the allies had won a tactical victory at Dresden and become overly self-confident Napoleon would have had a fair chance of anihilating at least one of the allied armies, but I'm not sure that would be enough to win the war (I would however like to see Bernadotte throughly trashed - and yes I know he is one of the ancestors to the present Danish Royal House, but Bernadotte just seem like one who deserve a good thrashing).

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
You're dreaming. Since 1806 Napoleon hadn't seriously cut any army up, but in this ATL he will need Jena-Auerstedt, Ulm or Austerlitz victories in close succession to prevail.

Well, going after Davout (or leaving him alone, for that matter) will cause a Jena-Auerstadt. Ulm was a freak encounter which could only happen at the start of a war, or through incredibly unlikely circumstances. Austerlitz may get a replay later in the campaign. Something like this. Davout is isolated, but manages to fend off a large portion of the allied army, while Napoleon ripps up a flanking force. After the restoration and Waterloo, the allies need a victory. what happens next is up in the air. Think Austerlitz, Leipzig, and Borodino comined into one battle.

Of course Napoleon with cavalry is more dangerous than Napoleon without, but he obviously wasn't dangerous enough in autumn of 1813, when he had a full complement of cavalry, much of it Guard.

But Napoleon had a habit of not commiting the Imperial Guard. I cannot find a specific source, but I remember that they were not commited at Austerlitz, Jena, Borodino, or Leipzig, among other battles.

Please Atreus, Wikipedia alone will not convince many on this board. It is OK to get an overview or to start a closer investigation, buy anyway your quote doesn't negate that Napoleon was forced to leave not only the battlefield (classical definition of defeat) but Germany for good (a decisive strategic defeat). On the 1813 and 1814 campaigns I especially will recommend works from before 1850, von Sporschill is one good example that comes to memory, but you will need to read German incl. gothic writing.

I know wikipedia is not a good source, but it does for short notice. And it corroberates what I got from other websites and books fairly well. But leaving a battlefield is not always a margin of defeat. while the circumstances are different, I would like to refer to the words of Admiral Reyne, commander of convoy SL 125, during WWII:

It was the only time in my career that I had been congratulated for loosing a large number of ships.

While not perfect, it does illustrate the point that losses or withdrawal are not a sure measure of defeat. In fact, the one thing that made Leipzig a real defeat for Napoleon, instead of a tactical defeat but a strategic draw, was the collapse of the bridge, which left a large French formation trapped between the river and the Coalition.

That the allies did not overrun the main French force was perhaps becausze they did not intend to. The allied strategy was one of cautiously applying ever more force until breaking the enemy, and not risking to be caught out on a limp. They had tried that several times but now knew very well that caution paid off vs. Napoleon. In many ways the allied stratgey in late Napoleon wars are similar to those of the allied in WWII, and Schwarzenberg's job similar to that of Eisenhower. And like Blitzkrieg being a blunted weapon by late WWII Napoleon's earlier monopoly on permanent armycorps, march separately and strike united etc. was broken by 1809.

Eisenhower is not a very good strategic model. He could have done far better than he did. And no monopoly on the corps system does not mean napoleon loses outright. It just means he has a slightly harder time of it.

If you like to think of Napoleon winning Leipzig it is OK for me, and had the allied command been less keen in their cautious determination, he might have had a chance, but as it was it was a very minor chance. Perhaps if the allies had won a tactical victory at Dresden and become overly self-confident Napoleon would have had a fair chance of anihilating at least one of the allied armies, but I'm not sure that would be enough to win the war (I would however like to see Bernadotte throughly trashed - and yes I know he is one of the ancestors to the present Danish Royal House, but Bernadotte just seem like one who deserve a good thrashing).

Regards

Steffen Redbeard[/QUOTE]

I personally think a napoleonic defeat at leipzig was likely, but by no means inevitable. And yes, Bernadotte deserved a thrashing. he was a mediocre general, something of a traitor to the french, and did little to help the others. An interesting scenario would be for a large Austrian Army (Ill say Schwarzenburg, he is the only commander I can think of with a large force directly under him) to be crushed, in a battle comparable to Austerlitz. Many austrians would complain, seeing themselves as catspaws for Russian interests. or reverse the encounter, have the russians beaten, accuse the Austrians of doing nothing.

Regards,

Atreus
 
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Redbeard

Banned
Atreus

I don't envy your task of trying to make Leipzig look not like a decisive Napoleonic defeat - I somehow can't stop thinking of Comical Ali when reading your post ;)

Concering Davout, he indeed was good, probably one of the best, but if he was as good as you expect he probably would have achieved better results than just being bottled up in Hamburg in 1813.

I believe we disagree heavily on most in this subject, and that is perfectly OK, but hardly anything to further elaborate on.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Atreus

I don't envy your task of trying to make Leipzig look not like a decisive Napoleonic defeat - I somehow can't stop thinking of Comical Ali when reading your post ;)

Concering Davout, he indeed was good, probably one of the best, but if he was as good as you expect he probably would have achieved better results than just being bottled up in Hamburg in 1813.

I believe we disagree heavily on most in this subject, and that is perfectly OK, but hardly anything to further elaborate on.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Well, it's not to hard if you ignore the bridge blowing up during the retreat.:D

All I can say about Davout is he was ordered to hold Hamburg, and he did until he was ordered by Louis XVIII to surrender.

I agree, we cannot go into to much more depth on the subject. How about a compromise? we agree that a Napoleonic victory is unlikely, but, given a certain chain of events, cna happen.

Regards,

Atreus
 
Yes Napoleon trounce the Austrian in both 1805 and in 1809. What should be considered is that if Napoleon crushed both Wellington and Blucher during the campaign then perhaps there was a chance for a victory of sorts. Without a doubt some of the forces that had been under Wellinton's command would defect to Napoleon (ie Belgian units and perhaps some of the Germans). The distruction of two allied armies would cause the allies to hesitate. Also it needs to be recalled that England had demoblized its army and it would take some time to rebuild it.
 

Redbeard

Banned
@Redbeard: Napoleon defeated Austria in 1809 pretty well, didn't he?
Certainly yes. Austria had to ceede a lot of teritory, numerous regiments had to disbanded for loss of their recruiting ground and Austria went practically bankrrupt in 1811 IIRC.

But the army survived intact, and even dealt back some serious blows. Aspern was the first Napoleonic defeat and Wagram was a close run thing (much more than Leipzig). I doubt if a lesser commander than Napoleon would have suceeded. In many ways I find Wagram the most impressive show of Napoleon's skills, but it was far from the decisiveness of battles like Jena-Auerstedt or Austerlitz.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Certainly yes. Austria had to ceede a lot of teritory, numerous regiments had to disbanded for loss of their recruiting ground and Austria went practically bankrrupt in 1811 IIRC.

But the army survived intact, and even dealt back some serious blows. Aspern was the first Napoleonic defeat and Wagram was a close run thing (much more than Leipzig). I doubt if a lesser commander than Napoleon would have suceeded. In many ways I find Wagram the most impressive show of Napoleon's skills, but it was far from the decisiveness of battles like Jena-Auerstedt or Austerlitz.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Wagram was an incomplete battle of Napoleon's. In fact, I consider it Napoleon's worst fought victory. His primary reason for winning seems to be a mix of numbers, skill, and brute force. And Aspern-Elsing was as much an Austrian defeat as a Napoleonic one. Instead of Crushing Lannes, (one of the best marshalls, put him with Davout and berthier at waterloo, and victory is assured), and against all the odds, he let most of the French army escape intact.

Atreus
 
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