"Berlin Painted Black": Himmler's Third Reich
- Thread starter Troiya
- Start date
Himmler was evil but not really competent except as smart political operator, he was good at building the SS empire but not doing anything with it - very inefficient even for the purposes he wanted. Heydrich, on the other hand, was equally evil but way more competent so the net result would be much worse.
Before Barbarossa Himmler simply is not a player for the throne.
There is a very small window, about one month before Barbarossa, during which the Reich was without a Deputy Führer. Before that short window, the man to succeed Hitler is Hess, so Himmler, to take the post, has to get rid of him too.
Göring is no lightweight (pun intended) and controls several key ministry or ministry-level positions.
The generals, finally, are unlikely to take anybody if they don't have any say.
Which brings up the next problem: while not being yet powerful enough, Himmler was cordially hated by Göring and by the generals (not sure about Hess).
So you need not to kill just Hitler, you need a bloodbath at the top which, however, somehow spares Himmler; and even so, I'd bet on some second-tier general stepping in, instead.
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That's as far as the succession issue goes. Now taking one step back, it seems totally outlandish that Stalin, notoriously cautious, would take the absurd risk of sending a Soviet citizen out in Berlin to murder Hitler - before Germany is at war with the Soviet Union. What if he fails? What if he's apprehended and interrogated? This is the same Stalin who forbade his air force to down German recon planes a hundred kilometers inside Soviet air space, so as not to offend Germany. And it's the same Stalin that on the very day of Barbarossa still wouldn't believe that the Germans would invade... unless provoked.
Doesn't hold water.
There is a very small window, about one month before Barbarossa, during which the Reich was without a Deputy Führer. Before that short window, the man to succeed Hitler is Hess, so Himmler, to take the post, has to get rid of him too.
Göring is no lightweight (pun intended) and controls several key ministry or ministry-level positions.
The generals, finally, are unlikely to take anybody if they don't have any say.
Which brings up the next problem: while not being yet powerful enough, Himmler was cordially hated by Göring and by the generals (not sure about Hess).
So you need not to kill just Hitler, you need a bloodbath at the top which, however, somehow spares Himmler; and even so, I'd bet on some second-tier general stepping in, instead.
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That's as far as the succession issue goes. Now taking one step back, it seems totally outlandish that Stalin, notoriously cautious, would take the absurd risk of sending a Soviet citizen out in Berlin to murder Hitler - before Germany is at war with the Soviet Union. What if he fails? What if he's apprehended and interrogated? This is the same Stalin who forbade his air force to down German recon planes a hundred kilometers inside Soviet air space, so as not to offend Germany. And it's the same Stalin that on the very day of Barbarossa still wouldn't believe that the Germans would invade... unless provoked.
Doesn't hold water.
In 1941 Hitler proclaimed Göring as his successor.
The only way I could see the spy killing Hitler, Göring and enough of the other Nazi contenders for leadership would be if he could plant a bomb at a meeting of Hitler and all his top cronies (which Himmler is absent from) and Himmler then goes on an arrest spree of the surviving top Nazis, accusing them of conspiring to kill Hitler.
Very unlikely though.
The only way I could see the spy killing Hitler, Göring and enough of the other Nazi contenders for leadership would be if he could plant a bomb at a meeting of Hitler and all his top cronies (which Himmler is absent from) and Himmler then goes on an arrest spree of the surviving top Nazis, accusing them of conspiring to kill Hitler.
Very unlikely though.
Which is irrelevant, because it happened after the beginning of Barbarossa, and the death of Hitler seems to be happening before it in TTL. The man you're looking for, barring a short window between May 11 and June 22 during which he was already a guest of His Majesty, is Hess.
Hess was deputy fuhrer in name only - Hitler was showing his gratitude to one of his earliest and most loyal supporters. No one in the party took him seriously as a potential leader. Himmler is probably the most likely successor as the new fuhrer would have to be a significant party figure. Goering was too sybaritic and personally corrupt and probably not sufficiently aggressive to satisfy the militarists. Heydrich would probably bide his time as no. 2 in a Himmler regime. Does anyone think that Goebbels might have had a shot?
The problem is that the Nazi paganism and fascination with the occult is essentially taking the brutality and vices of the Norse religions while keeping none of the virtues or noble perspectives. And it has 0 to do with today’s syncretic, eclectic, tolerant paganism.
Also, Himmler was the guy who planned to purify the GERMAN race even more by weeding out those with heart and lung conditions.
Yep. To elaborate, Göring had been the official successor since Hitler made a secret decree in 1934. That decree was later made public. Hitler officially announced that Göring would succeed him as leader of the Reich, Wehrmacht and Party in 1939. That was during the Reichstag speech where he announced that Germany was at war with Poland.
In the same speech, he also said that if something happened to him and Göring, Hess would be the successor. However, I strongly doubt anyone expected that to happen. Hess' Deputy Führer title did not make him Hitler's second-in-command. The closest thing to that was Göring (and even his authority was circumscribed), until debacles like Stalingrad etc. It officially made Hess the deputy in Party affairs, but the Nazi Party was not an organised machine like say the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. The bureaucracy he presided over gave him influence, but the heavyweights in the Party did not see him as their boss. There was no Grand Council of Fascism, Politburo or Central Committee. To a large degree, it was held together by Hitler and the personality cult that had been built up around him.
The Gauleiters considered themselves Hitler's local satraps and resented any attempt of the Party bureaucracy to encroach upon their autonomy (even Bormann, Hess' far more energetic chief of staff, could not fully control them. Not even after becoming the Brown Eminence at Hitler's court).
Hitler reaffirmed his aforementioned decree in 1941, when he once again stated that Göring would succeed him. It was officially only rendered void in 1945, when Göring was kicked out of the Party and lost all his posts. Not that there would have been anything to inherit by then anyway.
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People seem to forget Hitler had blackmail material on all his cronies, just in case they tried something. The man who was in charge of that material Reinhard Heydrich.
The other high-ranking Nazis despised Joseph Goebbels (the gold medal SOB the 20th century) If anyone else got in charge Goobles would be in trouble. Reinhard heydrich had the information Joseph Goebbels add the means to distribute it.
Heydrich just has to promise to keep Goobles around and possibly give him more power to get his cooperation.
Reinhard Heydrich and Joseph Goebbels were the brains of the outfit, those two teaming up would be scary.
The other high-ranking Nazis despised Joseph Goebbels (the gold medal SOB the 20th century) If anyone else got in charge Goobles would be in trouble. Reinhard heydrich had the information Joseph Goebbels add the means to distribute it.
Heydrich just has to promise to keep Goobles around and possibly give him more power to get his cooperation.
Reinhard Heydrich and Joseph Goebbels were the brains of the outfit, those two teaming up would be scary.