Berlin or Bust - An Unthinkable Operation

@ObssesedNuker are you sure these figures are for their entire army?

Too which the Soviet equivalent would be their 143 independent tank regiments/brigades* (breaking down into 45 medium tank brigades, 63 medium tank regiments, 34 heavy tank regiments, 1 heavy tank brigade) and 148 independent Su-regiments/brigades (136 regiments, 12 brigades), for a total of 291 AFV regiments/brigades. 15 anti-tank regiments were also re-equipped with Su-85 tank destroyers during the course of 1944 and the start of 1945.

I'm looking at my source here and it says that "On May, 9'45 Soviet Army had: 12 SP gun Brigades (7 light, 4 medium, 1 heavy), 256 SP gun Regiments (119 light, 81 medium, 56 heavy), 70 Separate SP gun Battalions (inside rifle divisions), 21 Battalion (in light SP gun brigades)." Does the material you cite give a breakdown by region or at least say whether or not this refers to forces vs. Germany or overall?
 
@ObssesedNuker are you sure these figures are for their entire army?



I'm looking at my source here and it says that "On May, 9'45 Soviet Army had: 12 SP gun Brigades (7 light, 4 medium, 1 heavy), 256 SP gun Regiments (119 light, 81 medium, 56 heavy), 70 Separate SP gun Battalions (inside rifle divisions), 21 Battalion (in light SP gun brigades)." Does the material you cite give a breakdown by region or at least say whether or not this refers to forces vs. Germany or overall?

It's an issue of division/corps-vs-non-divisional/corps units. Zaloga gives the same total figure in the Red Army Handbook on page 93 but also adds that: "Of these regiments, 105 were allocated as organic parts of tank, mechanized, and cavalry corps". Since Soviet tank/mechanized/cavalry corps were divisions in all but name, I subtracted these and the 70 SU-battalions in the Guards Rifle Divisions from them to get the overall "non-divisional" total.
 
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It's an issue of division/corps-vs-non-divisional/corps units. Zaloga gives the same total figure in the Red Army Handbook on page 93 but also adds that: "Of these regiments, 105 were allocated as organic parts of tank, mechanized, and cavalry corps". Since Soviet tank/mechanized/cavalry corps were divisions in all but name, I subtracted these and the 70 SU-battalions in the Guards Rifle Divisions from them to get the overall "non-divisional" total.

Ok. Then, in response to your request, my rough calculation for global Red Army ground forces, assuming full TO&E strength, is as follows:

Too which the Soviet equivalent would be their 143 independent tank regiments/brigades* (breaking down into 45 medium tank brigades, 63 medium tank regiments, 34 heavy tank regiments, 1 heavy tank brigade) and 148 independent Su-regiments/brigades (136 regiments, 12 brigades), for a total of 291 AFV regiments/brigades. 15 anti-tank regiments were also re-equipped with Su-85 tank destroyers during the course of 1944 and the start of 1945.

22 medium tank divisions, 3 heavy tank divisions, 15 "fixed casemate" divisions.

If actually organized in this way it would be awkward for SPGs to fight as true armored divisions, but since there were actually brigades (roughly, US battalions) of such vehicles in real life, they must have been fairly useful en masse. A large proportion of these were equipped with the SU-76.

On the other hand, even though a Soviet tank brigade was roughly equal to a US separate tank battalion (65 tanks vs 74 tanks and assault guns), the personnel strength for the Soviet unit was, at least on paper, about twice as high as for the Americans. This is probably because a Soviet tank brigade also included a motorized rifle "battalion" and organic AA.

Miscellaneous Soviet forces not listed above or below includes a corps of mountain divisions operating under 4th Ukrainian Front, three fortified regions (essentially machine gun/light artillery regiments), a ski rifle corps, three airborne corps made up of guards rifle divisions (which basically means another three rifle corps), and around 50-60 rifle divisions that had not been organized into corps (which as I noted earlier, are essentially regiments with division-level artillery support), three mechanized brigades, and 10 flamethrower companies.

1 mountain division, 1 ski division, 3 "airborne" divisions, 18 infantry divisions, 1 armored division. Total 24 divisions, of which 3 airborne and 1 armored.

Meanwhile, Soviet non-divisional artillery forces constituted 37 tube artillery divisions, 7 rocket artillery divisions, 80 independent tube and rocket artillery brigades, 243 independent tube and rocket artillery regiments, and 70 independent tube and rocket artillery battalions. This is excluding independent mortar units, of which there are 151 of (1 battalion, 142 regiments, and 8 brigades) and the firepower of their 120mm heavy mortars is equivalent to that of a similarly sized 105/122mm howitzer units (although, obviously, not the range). There were 551 AAA battalions/regiments in Soviet forces west of the Urals, although this figure also does not otherwise take into account location. There were also thirty-four tank-destroyer artillery brigades and 87 AT regiments (a mix of 45mm and 57mm AT guns, and 76.2mm field guns, with the odd 85 or 100mm lurking about).

Non-divisional artillery forces are extremely hard to account for both because of the number of units and lack of detail. Here, only looking at artillery divisions and independent mortar units:

Status of Soviet artillery divisions per Art on AH forum (1/1/45, may be out of date):
31 x breakthrough (of which 12 were 1944-type and the rest old)

1944-type

576 x 76.2mm​
1,008 x 122mm​
384 x 152mm​
288 x 203mm​
1,296 x 120mm mortar​
384 x 160mm mortar​
432 x MLRS​

Old-type

1,368 x 76.2mm​
1,596 x 122mm​
608 x 152mm​
684 x 152mm gun​
456 x 203mm​
2,052 x 120mm mortar​

4 (or 5?) “ordinary,” one was organized as a 1943 breakthrough division
Breakthrough div 1943

72 x 76.2mm​
84 x 122mm​
32 x 152mm​
36 x 152mm gun​
24 x 203mm​
108 x 120mm​

Ordinary arty divs (4)

288 x 76.2mm​
288 x 122mm​
144 x 152mm gun​
432 x 120mm mortar​
2 “gun” type (one – 4th guards– 4 gun brigades, other – 8th – 3 gun brigades) assuming each had 108 x 120mm mortar

252 x 152mm gun​
216 x 120mm mortar​
All MLRS units on 1 May 1945 (counting the above): 54 x M31 and 91 x M31-12, 24 units per battalion = 3,480 overall (Compare with 1 January total of 3,092 operational/nonoperational from the linked table)

Total artillery divisions
2,304 x 76.2mm (192 US battalions)
2,976 x 122mm (248 US battalions)
1,024 x 152mm howitzer (85 US battalions)
1,116 x 152mm gun (93 US battalions)
768 x 203mm howitzer (64 US battalions)
3,888 (possibly 4,104) x 120mm mortar (81-86 US mortar battalions), plus 3,984-3,996 independent mortar units (83 US mortar battalions)
384 x 160mm mortar (8 US battalions)

Excluding arty brigs (no data), independent 120mm mortar units: 166 regiments x 24 = 3,984 + 12(?) in spare battalion = 3,996. Compare with 16 x 4.2 inch mortar battalions in ETOUSA, 2 in Italy, and 6 in the Pacific. (4.2 inch mortar battalion = 48 x 24 = 1,152 units.)

Possibly there was a mixture of 1943 and 1938-type mortars, since the above likely exceeds the production run of the latter.
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Aggregate "equivalent" units:

41 armored divisions (15 fixed casemate)
18 infantry divisions
1 mountain division
1 ski division
3 airborne divisions

Adding these to the regular forces you mentioned in post 52 (174 infantry divs, 36 armored divs, 6 cavalry divs), we arrive at

192 infantry divisions
62 armored divisions
15 fixed casemate armored divisions
6 cavalry divisions
1 mountain division
1 ski division
3 airborne divisions

Total 280 divisions

Out of these, approximately the following would be 'west of the Urals:'

165 infantry divisions
65 armored divisions (including fixed casemate)
4 cavalry divisions
1 mountain division
1 ski division
3 airborne divisions

Total 239 divisions*

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*Approximately 85 percent of existing forces. According to official statistics (possibly questionable), at the end of the war in Europe about 10% of manpower and equipment (1.1 million men, 2,300 tanks/assault guns, 20,000 artillery pieces and mortars, and 4,300 aircraft) were in the Far East facing Japan. I don't know how many were in Central Asia, but a further 5 percent seems reasonable. However, I have also come across references to 35 percent of Soviet military forces being "on the eastern and southern borders" during the war (don't have the quote on me at the moment), though this might have only been with regard to late 1941/early 1942 (i.e, around the time of the Battle of Moscow). On 20 April 1945 more than 3.8 million out of 10.1 million personnel were in non-operation fronts or the military districts, and there were an additional 1.2 million wounded and sick in hospitals.

Some additional considerations:

The strength of the various armored formations
- By 'back calculation,' the TO&E complement for 77 armored divisions would be over 19,000 vehicles. According to the official table, there were only 20,670 tanks and assault guns, operational or otherwise, in the entire USSR as of 1 January 1945. While additional production might have increased the total somewhat between that date and the end of the war in May, it does not seem reasonable that all available tanks and assault guns in the entire country would be directly assigned to armored forces in the field. Compare this situation with the previously discussed example of US medium tanks: out of 7,600 in western Europe, 5,500 were in unit TO&Es and the remaining 2,100 were in reserve, were inoperable, or in theater pipelines. There were also additional tanks being made ready in the CONUS.

- The 1 January table has 12,600 tanks and assault guns in the active forces plus STAVKA reserve, with an additional 8,000 non-operational. We can surmise that of this number about 2,300 would be in the Far East (5700 remaining) and maybe 1000 in Central Asia. So there would be about 4,500 to 5,000 doing something other than being directly assigned to combat forces, or 35-40% against the above 12,600. If the Soviets truly had 77 division equivalents of tanks and SPGs by VE day, they would need, in addition to 19,250 vehicles to staff the unit TO&Es

- an approximate 10% reserve of operable tanks on-hand (roughly the situation with US medium tanks above) (total up to 21,200)​
- The same ~3,300 tanks and assault guns in the Far East and Central Asia (total up to 24,500)​
- A proportionate number of 'non-operationals' as above - between 4,500 and 8,500 (total up to between 29,000 and 33,000)​

The larger figure might not be realistic, since the opponent's ability to inflict losses on armored forces does not necessarily scale linearly with the size of those forces, but operational losses from 'wear and tear' probably do, maybe even moreso since a greater number tanks puts more stress on mechanics and service troops to keep them all running.

Now, you said earlier that "new production" from January-May 1945 was 22,672 AFVs, while irrecoverable losses were 13,700 (net increase of 8,972). This would theoretically put the Red Army at around the 30,000 mark, which would permit the 77 division-equivalents mentioned above. This is all contingent on all of the 9,000 AFVs being tanks or assault guns, not armored cars, carriers, and so on, which obviously wouldn't be included in the division-equivalent calculation. It also depends on existing tanks not being 'decommissioned' or rotated out either as obsolete, for training purposes, and so on.

In addition to all this we have evidence from Niehorster of entire tank regiments during the Battle of Berlin consisting of between 15 and 25 tanks, mixed groups of T-34s and heavy tanks, and so on. Probably by May not enough time would have elapsed to bring these units up to full strength. This was also the case with rifle divisions suffering losses in Berlin, Hungary, and Austria, many of which were under 3,000 (despite TO&Es of 3,600 to 4,500).

Basically my thinking is that the above estimates are fairly to the reality, but a number of factors (mistakes over deployment location manpower and equipment shortages) may mean they might not be entirely accurate. All said and done, I think, both sides deployed armies that were probably too large and too experienced for one to win a quick victory over the other; a France 1940 scenario is unlikely barring a massive collapse of morale. If it came to it, the tipping point would probably have been the US and Britain gaining air supremacy coupled with the breakdown of the Soviet supply net. The Soviet economy also wouldn't have been able to handle such a fight for very long.
 
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3 May 1945 - A return to the old world
3 May 1945, aboard HMS King George V

How rapidly events had changed thought Vice Admiral Bernard Rawlings. He looked again at his new instructions.

“Proceed to Sydney where you are to rendezvous with HMS Implacable, an Australian squadron and shipping support, there to embark elements of the 7th and 9th Australian Divisions and 4th Armoured Brigade and Commando elements and then proceed to Grand Harbour, Malta for deployment in European Theatre of operations.”

Over 100 ships including five Fleet carriers, three modern battleships, seven light cruisers and more than 20 destroyers, with as many as 70 support ships, were to turn their noses back to Sydney, their eventual destination Malta and then deployment against a new enemy.

Aboard the command ship USS Eldorado, Vice Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner faced the problem of how to move a whole fleet. The U.S 7th Fleet consisted of a hundred of ships but more than five times that. Three Marine Divisions and the 98th Infantry plus a fleet consisting of 22 escort carriers, 13 battleships, 12 cruisers and 51 destroyers as well destroyer escorts and a myriad of other units would all receive order to deploy to Europe. Only the fast carriers would stay in the Pacific region.
 
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This would never happen. The American populace would be up in arms if they had to fight another WW2. Stalin wasn't a fool, either. Both he and the Western Allies would proceed right to the negotiation table and settle the dispute there. Neither side had anything to gain and too much to lose from a war. If Western politicians try to justify it, they would get voted right out of office.
 
According to the official table, there were only 20,670 tanks and assault guns, operational or otherwise, in the entire USSR as of 1 January 1945.

Correction: 20,670 tanks and assault guns which were actually assigned to any forces in the Red Army in some capacity. The Main Directorate of Armored Forces lists another ~5,000 AFVs on January 1945 which were unassigned to any forces, either because they were undergoing factory rebuilds, being scrapped and stripped for parts, or were in deep storage. Any AFVs which would have been assigned to non-Red Army forces, such as the NKVDs military arm, would also not have appeared on that table although I do not imagine the numbers of those would have been very large at all.

This is all contingent on all of the 9,000 AFVs being tanks or assault guns,

They are. The Soviet figures very explicitly do not include armored cars, carriers, and so-on. It's all tanks and SAUs.

All said and done, I think, both sides deployed armies that were probably too large and too experienced for one to win a quick victory over the other; a France 1940 scenario is unlikely barring a massive collapse of morale.

Tactically, sure. Operationally, things are more complicated and the Soviets definitely have both an advantage in experience and institutional knowledge there. Whether it's enough for a France 1940 scenario is more dubious, but some punishing defeats that maul the WAllied armies and drive them back a fair bit before the Soviets invariably exhaust their offensive strength are in the cards.

If it came to it, the tipping point would probably have been the US and Britain gaining air supremacy coupled with the breakdown of the Soviet supply net. The Soviet economy also wouldn't have been able to handle such a fight for very long.

That... depends on your definition of "very long". Achieving air superiority over the Red Air Force would have taken the WAllies years like it did with the Luftwaffe, the Soviet supply net was functioning quite well, and the economy, while still wounded by war, had been recovering since 1943. While the strategic advantages in a long-war are in favor of the WAllies, it's still going to be a bloody fight of years and years.

 
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Correction: 20,670 tanks and assault guns which were actually assigned to any forces in the Red Army in some capacity. The Main Directorate of Armored Forces lists another ~5,000 AFVs on January 1945 which were unassigned to any forces, either because they were undergoing factory rebuilds, being scrapped and stripped for parts, or were in deep storage. Any AFVs which would have been assigned to non-Red Army forces, such as the NKVDs military arm, would also not have appeared on that table although I do not imagine the numbers of those would have been very large at all.

They are. The Soviet figures very explicitly do not include armored cars, carriers, and so-on. It's all tanks and SAUs.
In that case, the numbers may work out.

Tactically, sure. Operationally, things are more complicated and the Soviets definitely have both an advantage in experience and institutional knowledge there. Whether it's enough for a France 1940 scenario is more dubious, but some punishing defeats that maul the WAllied armies and drive them back a fair bit before the Soviets invariably exhaust their offensive strength are in the cards.

France 1940 happened, as you know, largely because the Allies' OODA loop was so massive that they were physically incapable of responding to the German offensive. The French were also only partially mobilized and critically lacked the political will to fight. By 1945 the armies on the continent were battle-hardened and they possessed a firm technical and material superiority over the Germans. Although they could be taken by surprise as the Bulge showed, their redundant communications network and total mechanization meant that there was practically no way they could be 'out-paced' by events.

Compared to the Allies, a unified command structure and three more years of continent-level maneuver warfare definitely conferred some advantages on the Red Army, but even against the Germans in the Spring of 1945 'annihilation in one swoop' was not possible. Furthermore the Allies themselves had become pretty adept in operations on that level too, and obviously possessed capabilities that the Germans were never close to achieving.

Additionally, the OP is just about the best case scenario for the Allies to not be caught off-guard, since a conflict presumably develops after a series of escalating skirmishes. Even if the Soviets were to hit first, the Allies would have seen it coming.

That... depends on your definition of "very long". Achieving air superiority over the Red Air Force would have taken the WAllies years like it did with the Luftwaffe, the Soviet supply net was functioning quite well, and the economy, while still wounded by war, had been recovering since 1943. While the strategic advantages in a long-war are in favor of the WAllies, it's still going to be a bloody fight of years and years.

"For very long" = over ~2 years.
 

nbcman

Donor
3 May 1945, aboard HMS King George V

How rapidly events had changed thought Vice Admiral Bernard Rawlings. He looked again at his new instructions.

“Proceed to Sydney where you are to rendezvous with HMS Implacable, an Australian squadron and shipping support, there to embark elements of the 7th and 9th Australian Divisions and 4th Armoured Brigade and Commando elements and then proceed to Grand Harbour, Malta for deployment in European Theatre of operations.”

Over 100 ships including five Fleet carriers, three modern battleships, seven light cruisers and more than 20 destroyers, with as many as 70 support ships, were to turn their noses back to Sydney, their eventual destination Malta and then deployment against a new enemy.

Aboard the command ship USS Eldorado, Vice Admiral Richmond Kelly Turner faced the problem of how to move a whole fleet. The U.S 7th Fleet consisted of a hundred of ships but more than five times that. Three Marine Divisions and the 98th Infantry plus a fleet consisting of 22 escort carriers, 13 battleships, 12 cruisers and 51 destroyers as well destroyer escorts and a myriad of other units would all receive order to deploy to Europe. Only the fast carriers would stay in the Pacific region.
The Battle of Okinawa is going on IOTL. How can the USN disengage all these ships including almost all of the BBs and ALL of the CVEs when trying to protect the landings from kamikazes and when they were providing shore bombardment / CAS and ASW protection? And what good will all those BBs do in the European theater?
 
France 1940 happened, as you know, largely because the Allies' OODA loop was so massive that they were physically incapable of responding to the German offensive. The French were also only partially mobilized and critically lacked the political will to fight. By 1945 the armies on the continent were battle-hardened and they possessed a firm technical and material superiority over the Germans. Although they could be taken by surprise as the Bulge showed, their redundant communications network and total mechanization meant that there was practically no way they could be 'out-paced' by events.

I wouldn't be so sure. A key aspect to the WAllies being able to respond to the Bulge was the fact the Germans did not possess the resources to sustain their offensive past the opening blow. Hell, they didn't even have the resources to even achieve a proper breakthrough in the opening blow. The most they managed was a break-in. The fact the offensive was so limited both geographically and resource-wise also meant the WAllies were not distracted or disoriented by diversionary attacks on secondary axis or sequenced co-equal offensives. This all gave the WAllies clarity on the situation, time to respond, and no other pressing demands which might have diverted their resources. These are not advantages they can count on against a Soviet-style strategic offensive in the summer of 1945.

That said, I definitely do agree that a France 1940 repeat is not in the cards unless their armies mutiny: WAllied resources are simply too vast. The Soviets might lop-off and destroy one or two armies and send the others scrambling back over the Rhine, but the WAllies have the resources to recover from that kind of defeat with spare to change so long as their political will holds together.

Of course, if Stalin's smart (and he is), he could also tailor a political campaign to try and fracture the Allied coalition. After such a surprise attack, the British and American populace might not be in very much mood to negotiate with the Soviets... but the French and the Low Countries might be another story and without their cooperation, the Anglo-Americans can hardly keep prosecuting the war in Central Europe.

Compared to the Allies, a unified command structure and three more years of continent-level maneuver warfare definitely conferred some advantages on the Red Army, but even against the Germans in the Spring of 1945 'annihilation in one swoop' was not possible. Furthermore the Allies themselves had become pretty adept in operations on that level too, and obviously possessed capabilities that the Germans were never close to achieving.

Erm... depending on how you define "annihilation in one swoop", the Soviets very much achieved that against the Germans repeatedly in the summer of 1944 and then again in the winter of 1944/45. The main reason the Germans survived is because, unlike the French in 1940, they still had the resources, depth, and political will to stitch together a new front from reconstituted and reserve formations when the Soviets hit their logistical culmination points. It is true that the WAllies never achieved this against the Germans: the most they managed was partial destruction of the German forces in Normandy and routing the rest back into German and the Low Countries.

Additionally, the OP is just about the best case scenario for the Allies to not be caught off-guard, since a conflict presumably develops after a series of escalating skirmishes. Even if the Soviets were to hit first, the Allies would have seen it coming.

Too a point, yes. The nature and direction of the attack may still take them off-guard (and the Soviets were very, very good at disguising this), but certainly they'll be more on guard to being attacked in the first place.

"For very long" = over ~2 years.

Mmm... sounds slightly optimistic to me, I’d guess more on the order of ~3 years, but at that point I'm quibbling and your guesstimate is within the margin of error of mine.

The Battle of Okinawa is going on IOTL. How can the USN disengage all these ships including almost all of the BBs and ALL of the CVEs when trying to protect the landings from kamikazes and when they were providing shore bombardment / CAS and ASW protection? And what good will all those BBs do in the European theater?

I sorta agree. To be sure, there'd be a diversion of ships and a serious one at that, but completely denuding the Pacific of their surface complement is simultaneously unnecessary, overkill, and detrimental to already on-going operations.
 
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The Battle of Okinawa is going on IOTL. How can the USN disengage all these ships including almost all of the BBs and ALL of the CVEs when trying to protect the landings from kamikazes and when they were providing shore bombardment / CAS and ASW protection? And what good will all those BBs do in the European theater?
It’s not as hard as you think. By the end of April kamikaze attacks had petered out and all three airstrips captured. As for the battleships it all depends on whether you wish to make amphibious landings
 
I can't think of anywhere in Europe you'd need to make an amphibious landing against the Soviets. The Baltic front would just be suicide, even if you decided to use the remnants of the Courland Pocket as a starting point. Turkey isn't going to risk getting involved to let ships through the Bosporus, for instance. And if you must have battleships, just use the British ones. There's still plenty of Royal Navy BBs that haven't been routed to the Pacific that you can use (even if some are clapped out) for shore bombardment, without denuding the Pacific operations. Same goes for carriers to some extent.

(and if you really need battleships for some reason, the impounded Regia Marina ships are also there)
 
I wouldn't be so sure. A key aspect to the WAllies being able to respond to the Bulge was the fact the Germans did not possess the resources to sustain their offensive past the opening blow. Hell, they didn't even have the resources to even achieve a proper breakthrough in the opening blow. The most they managed was a break-in. The fact the offensive was so limited both geographically and resource-wise also meant the WAllies were not distracted or disoriented by diversionary attacks on secondary axis or sequenced co-equal offensives. This all gave the WAllies clarity on the situation, time to respond, and no other pressing demands which might have diverted their resources. These are not advantages they can count on against a Soviet-style strategic offensive in the summer of 1945.

Lack of fuel was one factor, but it was far from the only reason the Germans were stopped: the 6th Panzer Army, which had a formidable array of men and equipment, was unable to overrun the 99th and 2nd infantry divisions on the northern shoulder. This alone blocked them from sweeping to the north to get to Antwerp and completely derailed the offensive's operational goals. Only one day after the German attack (17 December) the Allies moved in 60,000 men and 11,000 vehicles, and within a week - 250,000 men and 50,000 vehicles.

This despite the fact that the Germans were able to achieve total operational surprise under favorable weather conditions against the weakest sector of the Allied front; against their 20 divisions the Americans initially only had four. Even so, only one US division, the 106th infantry, was actually destroyed, but it was completely green and the fierce resistance by its constituent forces near St. Vith ruined the German timetable for their advance westward.

The Ardennes also wasn't the only German offensive during the winter of 1944/45: in Alsace-Lorraine they launched Operation Nordwind to take advantage of US transfers north to the Bulge. But in this case the Allies were well-prepared and stopped the German attack.

It's true that, given the huge disparity in forces between the Red Army and the German Army on the western front in December 1944 it would have been much more difficult to concentrate reserves in order to contain the attacks like what was done in the Ardennes, but not all sectors were as weak as the Ardennes was. Furthermore, the high density of forces the Soviets preferred to gather for breakthrough operations would have inevitably come under massive attacks by air power and artillery as the offensive began, which would have caused immense damage both to the forces themselves as well as to timetables and overall cohesion, not to mention their effects on supply lines.

That said, I definitely do agree that a France 1940 repeat is not in the cards unless their armies mutiny: WAllied resources are simply too vast. The Soviets might lop-off and destroy one or two armies and send the others scrambling back over the Rhine, but the WAllies have the resources to recover from that kind of defeat with spare to change so long as their political will holds together.

Destroying an Allied army outright seems kind of far-fetched: by the end of the war the Allied armies were aligned basically north-south from the Baltic to the Adriatic. There were no obvious salients that could be encircled or cut off. Soviet forces were mainly grouped in two regions: on the north German plain and in western Czechoslovakia. If the armies in Czechoslovakia tried to attack the US Third, Seventh, and French First Armies in Bavaria they would, in addition to those large forces, have to worry about a flank attack from the First Army in central Germany.

Meanwhile in the north the 21st Army Group had over a million men and the US Ninth Army approximately 400,000 more. Every division was completely motorized and they had thousands of tanks, not to mention air support. I can see the Allies being pushed back under unfavorable circumstances, but encircled - not really.

Of course, if Stalin's smart (and he is), he could also tailor a political campaign to try and fracture the Allied coalition. After such a surprise attack, the British and American populace might not be in very much mood to negotiate with the Soviets... but the French and the Low Countries might be another story and without their cooperation, the Anglo-Americans can hardly keep prosecuting the war in Central Europe.

I also don't think the French would just abandon the Allied cause, especially if the Soviets were the aggressors. There were many French communists, but France as a whole just survived 5 years of Nazi occupation and probably wouldn't have wanted to trade their newfound freedom to throw in their lot with yet another totalitarian regime.

Erm... depending on how you define "annihilation in one swoop", the Soviets very much achieved that against the Germans repeatedly in the summer of 1944 and then again in the winter of 1944/45. The main reason the Germans survived is because, unlike the French in 1940, they still had the resources, depth, and political will to stitch together a new front from reconstituted and reserve formations when the Soviets hit their logistical culmination points.

Annihilation in one swoop - total destruction of all military forces and/or defeat of the Nazi regime in a single offensive operation.

It is true that the WAllies never achieved this against the Germans: the most they managed was partial destruction of the German forces in Normandy and routing the rest back into German and the Low Countries.

In Normandy there were more than 40 German divisions destroyed (arguably the worst single German defeat of the war); in the Rhineland the German army also lost entire corps wholesale thanks to Hitler's orders to stay and fight on the far banks, and of course large forces were also encircled and reduced in the Colmar and Ruhr pockets.

Too a point, yes. The nature and direction of the attack may still take them off-guard (and the Soviets were very, very good at disguising this), but certainly they'll be more on guard to being attacked in the first place.

Maybe. But even a somewhat prepared defense with reserves ready to move forward is far better than total surprise.
 
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Lack of fuel was one factor, but it was far from the only reason the Germans were stopped: the 6th Panzer Army, which had a formidable array of men and equipment, was unable to overrun the 99th and 2nd infantry divisions on the northern shoulder. This alone blocked them from sweeping to the north to get to Antwerp and completely derailed the offensive's operational goals. Only one day after the German attack (17 December) the Allies moved in 60,000 men and 11,000 vehicles, and within a week - 250,000 men and 50,000 vehicles.

This despite the fact that the Germans were able able to achieve total operational surprise under favorable weather conditions against the weakest sector of the Allied front; against their 20 divisions the Americans initially only had four. Even so, only one US division, the 106th infantry, was actually destroyed, but it was completely green and the fierce resistance by its constituent forces near St. Vith ruined the German timetable for their advance westward.

The Ardennes also wasn't the only German offensive during the winter of 1944/45: in Alsace-Lorraine they launched Operation Nordwind to take advantage of US transfers north to the Bulge. But in this case the Allies were well-prepared and stopped the German attack.

6th Panzer Army may have been impressive by German standards at the end of 1944, but not by WAllied or Soviet ones. It also faced a lot more than just the 99th and 2nd Infantry division: the 1st and 9th Infantry Divisions as well as the 5th Armored Division were also deployed opposite the 6th Panzers area of responsibility, with the the 30th Infantry as an immediate reserve. The actual assault on the 99th and 2nd positions was also botched, being a largely infantry assault with little in the way of artillery or armored support: most of the panzer and panzer grenadier forces opted to bypass to the southeast while the breakthrough sector was far too wide and the artillery concentration as a result far too dispersed: 1,200 guns over a 130 kilometer breakthrough sector. By comparison, Soviet artillery concentrations tended to focus about 3-8 times those number of pieces on breakthrough sectors between 1/5th to 1/10th that size*.

On the whole, the German force deployed for the Ardennes was vastly weaker then any corresponding Soviet offensive force would be for such an ambitious operation. It's operational superiority in men and material were inadequate and sometimes even non-existant, it's tactical superiorities were even worse. Most of it's forces were far worse trained and motivated then even the "green" and "inexperienced" WAllied divisions. The logistical planning constituted little more than wishful thinking as did the exploitation plan, and the breakthrough plan called for too few troops to try and do too many things with too little resources and not enough training. Execution was also botched: only the mechanized units showed any enthusiasm and dash until they inevitably ran out of fuel. Leadership was mostly unenthusiastic, the infantry poorly motivated, and the artillery support crippled by both excessive dispersion and ammunition shortages. Also, it's a quibble but while the 106th infantry division was gutted, but not completely destroyed. Enough of the division survived that it was reconstituted in a few months, much like the German forces which retreated from Normandy.

Finally, the fact the WAllies were able to successfully redeploy such forces rapidly was largely as a consequence of the geographic and resources of the German breakthrough. The quantities involved for the timespans given are hardly unique: during the summer of 1944, when the Soviets launched Operation Bagration in Belorussia, the German High Command was able to redeploy similarly sized from Western Ukraine once they recognized the offensive was ongoing (which took them several days) in a similar timeframe. The difference is that whereas the WAllied redeployments to the Ardennes found themselves joining the already-present frontline forces in an ongoing breakthrough battle, the German redeployments to Belorussia found themselves with the breakthrough battle having already taken place before they were even ordered to the scene, all of the frontline forces already overrun or encircled, and huge Soviet forces wheeling freely through gaps in the line that such numbers were just too paltry to plug. The redeployments thus found themselves struggling to fight just to save their lives rather than stop the enemy. The WAllies were also aided by the fact that the Ardennes was the only place the Germans were launching a major offensive so they could concentrate their reserves and forces there. Nowhere else were there even pinning attacks... the Germans simply didn't have the strength for that.

One can hardly count Nordwind as a major offensive, save for the delusional mind of Hitler. The Germans didn't even commit a fraction of the forces they did for the Bulge to it.

Let's also take a moment to appreciate the scale here: the Bulge was fundamentally only one major offensive on a single major axis and a handful of minor ones conducted by a single army group. By contrast, the Soviet 1944/45 winter-spring offensive involved no less than three major coordinated strategic offensives, each one conducted by up to 2-4 army groups on a similar number of axis and a utter host of minor offensives for distraction, diversionary, and pinning purposes.

*As a rule, the Soviets found that for breakthrough sectors, a width of 12 kilometers in closed terrain and 15 kilometers in open terrain is the minimum, with 20-35 kilometers being the ideal. Any more, and your forces are liable to become too dispersed to achieve a breakthrough. Any less, and you run into the twin problems of congestion and enemy artillery fire from the shoulders being able to interdict the insertion of tactical and operational exploitation echelons, which resulted in excessive casualties and slow penetration. On the few occasions they actually attempted an operational concentration, the WAllies made the latter mistake: their breakthrough sectors tended to be 6-7 kilometers wide.

It's true that, given the huge disparity in forces between the Red Army and the German Army on the western front in December 1944 it would have been much more difficult to concentrate reserves in order to contain the attacks like what was done in the Ardennes, but not all sectors were as weak as the Ardennes was.

Nor were all other sectors stronger. Weak points in the front are inevitable. To achieve the overwhelming tactical concentrations they did against the Germans from what were much modest strategic and operational superiority, the Soviets likewise had to economize on assets in passive and non-essential sectors, relying on deception practices to make those sectors seem stronger then they actually were.

Furthermore, the high density of forces the Soviets preferred to gather for breakthrough operations would have inevitably come under massive attacks by air power and artillery as the offensive began, which would have caused immense damage both to the forces themselves as well as to timetables and overall cohesion, not to mention their effects on supply lines.

This makes a lot of assumptions: firstly, it assumes that the massive concentration is detected. Given the scale and effectiveness of Soviet maskirovka techniques, proven effective not only against the Germans but also against the Anglo-Americans in subsequent Cold War proxy wars, this is dubious. Secondly, the opening of the attack would involve a coordinated and deeply sophisticated preparatory bombardment with heavy air and artillery attacks against WAllied artillery and assumes that WAllied artillery would be able to cope with this. Despite it's greater tactical proficiency, WAllied artillery on the key breakthrough sectors is liable to fair no better in countering Soviet artillery concentrations that outweigh them 35+:1 than the Germans did. They would most likely be too busy getting counterbatteried to death to effectively provide defensive fires.

Thirdly, WAllied air attacks against Soviet concentrations would, by necessity, bring them down to levels where they would invariably entangle with the Red Air Force in conditions which the VVS was built to fight in far more effectively than their WAllied counterparts (ie: low-altitude dogfighting over the heads of troops). Fourthly, those CAS aircraft which are able to make it past the immense air battles would then have to contend with heavy Soviet AAA presence: during the Vistula-Oder offensive, the Soviets protected their key breakthrough sectors with dense AAA concentrations of up to 50 AA guns-per-kilometer. And finally, there is the assumption that those CAS which makes it past both the VVS and the AAA would be excessively disruptive to the concentrations, but this does not jive well with the actual historical evidence of the Red Army's experience conducting breakthrough-exploitation in the face of air attack: the Luftwaffe as well in the summer of 1944 made notable attempts at attacking massed Soviet tank assaults exploiting breaches in their defenses. During the L'vov-Sandomierz Offensive, for example, the Luftwaffe launched concerted air raids at two Soviet tank armies moving through the Koltuv corridor as they sought to penetrate the German defenses. The Koltuv Corridor was unusually narrow for a Soviet breakthrough sector and as a result the Luftwaffe was provided with an opportune target rich environment. Despite this, there is little evidence they had much impact on the Soviet advance despite numerous Soviet reports detailing the constant raids.

Destroying an Allied army outright seems kind of far-fetched: by the end of the war the Allied armies were aligned basically north-south from the Baltic to the Adriatic. There were no obvious salients that could be encircled or cut off. Soviet forces were mainly grouped in two regions: on the north German plain and in western Czechoslovakia. If the armies in Czechoslovakia tried to attack the US Third, Seventh, and French First Armies in Bavaria they would, in addition to those large forces, have to worry about a flank attack from the First Army in central Germany.

Meanwhile in the north the 21st Army Group had over a million men and the US Ninth Army approximately 400,000 more. Every division was completely motorized and they had thousands of tanks, not to mention air support. I can see the Allies being pushed back under unfavorable circumstances, but encircled - not really.

At the time of surrender, only 4 Allied armies were in contact with Soviet forces: the American 3rd, 1st, 9th, and British 2nd. The British 8th Army in northeastern Italy was also in an uneasy stand-off with Soviet equipped Yugoslav armies at the extreme southern end of the front. The American 15th Army was still mopping pockets of resistance in the Ruhr area while the Canadian 1st was finishing off the Germans in the Netherlands. The US 7th were further to the southwest, moving into Austria border. A Soviet assault westward would effectively see the Soviet forces in Eastern Germany, which would be 3 Soviet Army Groups (the 3 Belorussian Fronts) attacking up against a British and two American armies on the Western German Plain, two Army Groups (1st and 4th Ukrainian Front) against 3rd Army in Czechoslovakia, and the remaining two Soviet fronts, plus the Yugoslav armies, rushing towards a meeting engagement with about 3 WAllied armies in central Austria and Northeast Italy. For out-of-contact forces, the Soviets have their two Baltic Fronts (basically two more army groups) and the WAllies have three armies (the US 15th, the Canadian 1st, and the French 1st.

Really, the fact the Soviets have only one less Army Group (and unlike Soviet corps, divisions, and what have you, Soviet Fronts really were Army Group Strength) then the WAllies have armies rather says everything about the balance of combat power on the ground.

That there are no obvious salient doesn't mean much: what matters is whether the Soviets can rapidly force breakthroughs through the WAllied frontlines on the key breakthrough sectors and achieve maneuver. Once they do, being fully motorized doesn't render one any less susceptible to all the problems that occurs when you have a mess of operational maneuver groups and forward detachments running around in your rear areas, raising all hell and endlessly pre-empting your attempts to redeploy. Air support is something both sides have, so ultimately it's a wash in operational-strategic terms.

I also don't think the French would just abandon the Allied cause, especially if the Soviets were the aggressors. There were many French communists, but France as a whole just survived 5 years of Nazi occupation and probably wouldn't have wanted to trade their newfound freedom to throw in their lot with yet another totalitarian regime.

They don't have to. If Stalin is smart, he can offer the French pretty good terms: total freedom, reparations from Germany, even the retention of their own occupation zone in exchange for dropping out of the WAllied coalition.

Annihilation in one swoop - total destruction of all military forces and/or defeat of the Nazi regime in a single offensive operation.

Yeah, that was a fantasy the Soviets never bought into. Their theory of war from the very beginning envisioned conflict as a prolonged struggle which would require a sequence of campaigns to bring the enemy down. Even a total dismemberment of ones frontline could be patched up so long as one had the depth, time, and resources as the Soviets showed in 1941-42 and the Germans in 1944-45.

In Normandy there were more than 40 German divisions destroyed (arguably the worst single German defeat of the war); in the Rhineland the German army also lost entire corps wholesale thanks to Hitler's orders to stay and fight on the far banks, and of course large forces were also encircled and reduced in the Colmar and Ruhr pockets.

No German divisions were actually outright destroyed at Normandy. Mauled and gutted, yes, but not destroyed. The headquarters and significant cadres were able to escape back to the east to be reconstituted and refilled, returning to action in the autumn first to block the WAllied advance towards Germany and eventually attempt the Battle of the Bulge. The Colmar pocket was small (around 25,000-30,000 men) and mostly a French show, although American involvement was significant. The Ruhr Pocket was enormous and inordinately successful, but was conducted against forces that had effectively lost all combat value and even the very will to fight. It was also the only preplanned operational encirclement conducted by the Anglo-Americans in the entire Northwestern European campaign, with the Falaise and Colmar pockets being improvised (and in the latter case, almost accidental). The only other operational encirclement conducted by the Anglo-Americans in Northwest Europe was the pinning of the Fifteenth Army against the English Channel. It was a total failure: all German forces were successfully evacuated. That's a grand total of two successful pockets (the Ruhr and Colmar), one partial success/partial failure (Falaise) and one total failure (the pinning of the Fifteenth).

By contrast, the Soviets conducted fifteen operational encirclements in 1944 alone, all preplanned, in which more than 200 German divisions were destroyed. Around half of the pocketed formations were destroyed within twenty days, 30% held out for up to one-and-a-half months, and 20% managed to either partially or wholly escape encirclement.

Maybe. But even a somewhat prepared defense with reserves ready to move forward is far better than total surprise.

Yes, to a degree. Enough? Maybe.
 
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Despite this, there is little evidence they had much impact on the Soviet advance despite numerous Soviet reports detailing the constant raids.
It wasn't Typhoons and P-47s shooting rockets at Panthers that stopped the Panzers, but shooting up the trucks in the rear areas, and the railroads supplying those trucks.
All the AAA the Germans had, didn't stop it.

Soviet would have no better luck than the Germans did in stopping medium bombers from destroying marshaling yards and bridges.
How are the Russian spearheads getting bullets and beans, and fuel? Germany is kind of a supply desert in 1945
 
It wasn't Typhoons and P-47s shooting rockets at Panthers that stopped the Panzers, but shooting up the trucks in the rear areas, and the railroads supplying those trucks.
All the AAA the Germans had, didn't stop it.

Something else that also never happened. WAllied air raids on German supply lines reduced throughput, but they never severed it and German mechanized forces were able to continue conducting operations right up until Germany physically ran out of it’s fuel stocks. Even then, it’s not certain if the reduced throughout was. And German AAA did indeed have considerable impact on WAllied CAS tactical operations, as did a Soviet AAA in later wars, but their coverage was generally limited in covering the immediate frontline.

Besides, German logistical problems were heavily self-inflicted. Feeding Mars: The Role of Logistics in the German Defeat in Normandy, 1944, the Geman dumps were much too far behind the lines, too small, and too few resources were allocated to transport what supplies there was forward. Allied air attacks certainly exacerbated this problem, but the root cause was the basic German logistic plan in France was woefully inadequate. Even had the Allies not flown a single fighter bomber sortie, the Germans would have been in trouble. The USAAF did make for a convenient scapegoat to cover for their own failings, though. But even with all this logistical trouble the Germans were able to get enough supplies for their forces to bottle up overwhelmingly superior WAllied forces in Normandy until their own were attrited to pieces through nearly two months of brutal ground combat. So even a force with a much more dysfunctional logistical set-up then that of the Red Army was able to ferry supplies in to fight the WAllies under conditions of their air supremacy, much less superiority or parity.

As I said before: there is simply no example of air power completely severing supply lines. And there are examples of supply lines increasing throughput under far worse air conditions than what would be the case for the Soviets in Operation Unthinkable, usually by Soviet client states using Soviet methods.

Soviet would have no better luck than the Germans did in stopping medium bombers from destroying marshaling yards and bridges.

An ironic claim, given the successful history of the Soviets to do precisely that against German medium bombers attempting logistical interdiction against the Soviet rail net in 1942-44 and various Soviet client states against the US in subsequent wars using the same techniques. The usual practice was passive defenses, above all mixing deception and camouflage. Good old Maskirovka, using various slight of hands tricking the enemy into thinking actually-functional bridges and marshaling yards had been destroyed.

To use just one of a innumerable myriad of examples from the Soviet playbook: you're a Soviet officer whose been assigned to keep a target, let's say a railway yard, intact if the WAllies have been assigned to bomb it. A German officer would just toss up some camouflage over the thing and call it a day until invariably ever-more detailed WAllied reconnaissance manages to peer through it. But your not a German officer and you have been taught to be far more clever with such resources. Oh, sure, you'll camouflage it as part of your first move, but that isn't all you'll do.

You'll also construct a decoy yard, right nearby. The decoy gets camouflaged too but not as well as the real thing: only enough to make it look like you put in the effort, but not enough that it doesn't avoid notice. The real target, on the other hand, gets camouflaged perfectly. Then you wait for the WAllies to launch their strike.

The WAllies do their pre-strike reconnaissance and they pick out the decoy because it's more visible. Then they send in the bombers and bomb the decoy. That's when you make your second move: you disassemble the decoy completely and at the same time gussy up the target so that, when it gets photographed by a reconnaissance plane overhead from 30,000 or so feet, it looks like it's actually been destroyed.

At the same time, you send out fake radio broadcasts* reporting severe, maybe even catastrophic, damage and have the NKPS railway workers who circulate the local towns loudly complain about mythical delays and disruptions because the yard got bombed for any local eavesdroppers, particularly those who might be willing to pass on such stories to the WAllies, overhear. That way, when the WAllies do BDA, they'll have IMINT, SIGINT, and HUMINT sources telling them they did a bang-up job blowing the target to kingdom come. There will also be some sources that might be more accurate: intercepts of the genuine radio broadcasts, local railway workers working for WAllied intelligence who notice that the damage he himself is seeing appears less severe than if the target actually had been hit. But it’ll be impossible to tell the genuine from the fake and with the intelligence picture muddied enough then their own air chiefs biases in the effectiveness of their services operations have a good chance of causing them to listen to the intelligence reports they want to hear (and which you want them to listen to). After all, who doesn't like to hear they've done a good job? It's destroyed, they can move on to new targets for at least a few days or weeks or months or whatever. They think the jobs done for the moment.

But your job isn't over. Not until the war ends buster (or WAllied bombers are pushed back out of range, or a WAllied [counter-]offensive overruns the target, whichever happens first)! Eventually, the WAllies are going to come back to take another look and they'll find it a bit odd if they see a still destroyed target with no effort being put into repairing it while the Soviet frontline armies don't seem to be suffering from the stockpile shortages that should be manifesting by then if the target was actually destroyed. Nope! Your third move is basically to keep the con going and convincing: recamouflage the target so from the air it looks like something that has been patched up. Send out fake radio reports detailing the progress of repair work and have NKPS workers start talking about how tough the rebuilding job is when on leave in the local towns. If your superiors are generous enough with their resources, maybe even get them to bring in a genuine railway repair brigade and all of it's equipment for a few days, just to be all the more convincing. That way, when the WAllies run assessments on why Soviet supply lines haven't crumbled, their liable to conclude it's because of all the repair work the intel is saying the Soviets have been doing. So they'll have to bomb again.

At that point you go back to step one: rebuild the decoy, recamouflage the real target so it doesn't get noticed or hit, and wait for the next strike to come in.

In short: a good Soviet maskirovka campaign is an all-encompassing thing that gets the enemy to believe what the Soviets want it to believe. And most often, that's by giving the enemy what they want and expect to see. A good Soviet intelligence officer, listening to a WAllied air man going on and on about how their air campaign will destroy the Soviets LOCs is just going to quietly smile and keep listening carefully, because that air man would be telling the officer everything he needs to know to pull the wool over western militaries eyes.

*Naturally, you'll have tipped your superiors off to these fake broadcasts, probably through courier or a secure wired line or some other means, so they don't get overly alarmed. They'll understand: after all, they're schooled in the same deception doctrine as you are.

How are the Russian spearheads getting bullets and beans, and fuel? Germany is kind of a supply desert in 1945.

Same way they did in 1945. Railway operations were restored up to the Oder River by the spring of 1945 and by the summer were good enough for military operations. Soviet supply inputs were also at record levels by 1945: on a per-soldier basis, Soviet soldiers by '45 were actually firing off more munition tonnage on both a absolute and per-man basis than even their WAllied counterparts. Depending on how much reconstruction work the WAllies have done on the West German railnet and how much fighting happens, but they may capture sections of that intact enough for their purposes as well, but otherwise for the most part it’ll be the truck regiments and brigades operating under Army and Front command delivering supplies in the priorities as worked out by the Front and Army staffs.
 
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6th Panzer Army may have been impressive by German standards at the end of 1944, but not by WAllied or Soviet ones. It also faced a lot more than just the 99th and 2nd Infantry division: the 1st and 9th Infantry Divisions as well as the 5th Armored Division were also deployed opposite the 6th Panzers area of responsibility, with the the 30th Infantry as an immediate reserve. The actual assault on the 99th and 2nd positions was also botched, being a largely infantry assault with little in the way of artillery or armored support: most of the panzer and panzer grenadier forces opted to bypass to the southeast while the breakthrough sector was far too wide and the artillery concentration as a result far too dispersed: 1,200 guns over a 130 kilometer breakthrough sector. By comparison, Soviet artillery concentrations tended to focus about 3-8 times those number of pieces on breakthrough sectors between 1/5th to 1/10th that size*.

The 6th panzer army's initial frontage was only 23 miles wide, but General Dietrich's assault force concentrated in less than half that area. According to Dupuy, 6th panzer army concentrated at least 657 light, medium, and heavy guns and 340 multiple rocket launchers for the initial bombardment - or roughly 55 to 65 pieces per km of front. Dietrich also had a 6 to 1 superiority in troops at the breakthrough points. Both of these were less than what the Soviets commonly preferred (200 guns/km and a 10:1 superiority in manpower), but it wasn't exactly a slap. Although I don't have the German fire plan on hand the barrage was described as massive and German guns typically fired more rounds per barrel on the western front than in the east, where they still out-shot the Soviets. Fortunately for the Americans, much of this fire was ineffective because of Hitler's orders against pre-registration, lack of trained fire-control personnel and equipment, and the dug in US positions.

The 1st SS panzer corps (1st and 12th SS panzer divisions, 3rd parachute division, 12th, 277th, and 326th volksgrenadier divisions, and 150th panzer brigade) attacked on the seam between the 99th and 106th divisions' sectors. The numerical imbalance was particularly large in front of Krinkelt, where two 99th Division regiments (the 393rd and 394th) were opposed by the 3rd parachute division and two volksgrenadier divisions, with the two panzer divisions making their attacks the next day. But, although the Germans were able to gain ground they could not destroy the US forces and the cost incurred by them was horrendous. Then the American front line consolidated and they went nowhere.

On the whole, the German force deployed for the Ardennes was vastly weaker then any corresponding Soviet offensive force would be for such an ambitious operation. It's operational superiority in men and material were inadequate and sometimes even non-existant, it's tactical superiorities were even worse. Most of it's forces were far worse trained and motivated then even the "green" and "inexperienced" WAllied divisions. The logistical planning constituted little more than wishful thinking as did the exploitation plan, and the breakthrough plan called for too few troops to try and do too many things with too little resources and not enough training. Execution was also botched: only the mechanized units showed any enthusiasm and dash until they inevitably ran out of fuel. Leadership was mostly unenthusiastic, the infantry poorly motivated, and the artillery support crippled by both excessive dispersion and ammunition shortages. Also, it's a quibble but while the 106th infantry division was gutted, but not completely destroyed. Enough of the division survived that it was reconstituted in a few months, much like the German forces which retreated from Normandy.

On the whole they might have been weaker, but on the tactical level there were cases where US troops were outnumbered 15 to 1. Training and motivation is also questionable: to the Germans, they were fighting for their home soil and were determined to protect their 'fatherland' from the Allied invaders. Additionally even the volksgrenadier divisions were formed on the basis of veteran NCOs and German officers were almost uniformly good.

Finally, the fact the WAllies were able to successfully redeploy such forces rapidly was largely as a consequence of the geographic and resources of the German breakthrough. The quantities involved for the timespans given are hardly unique: during the summer of 1944, when the Soviets launched Operation Bagration in Belorussia, the German High Command was able to redeploy similarly sized from Western Ukraine once they recognized the offensive was ongoing (which took them several days) in a similar timeframe. The difference is that whereas the WAllied redeployments to the Ardennes found themselves joining the already-present frontline forces in an ongoing breakthrough battle, the German redeployments to Belorussia found themselves with the breakthrough battle having already taken place before they were even ordered to the scene, all of the frontline forces already overrun or encircled, and huge Soviet forces wheeling freely through gaps in the line that such numbers were just too paltry to plug. The redeployments thus found themselves struggling to fight just to save their lives rather than stop the enemy. The WAllies were also aided by the fact that the Ardennes was the only place the Germans were launching a major offensive so they could concentrate their reserves and forces there. Nowhere else were there even pinning attacks... the Germans simply didn't have the strength for that.

What forces did the Germans throw into Byelorussia that were comparable to Eisenhower's reinforcements? On what scale and over what timeframe, and over what distances?

One can hardly count Nordwind as a major offensive, save for the delusional mind of Hitler. The Germans didn't even commit a fraction of the forces they did for the Bulge to it.

At least 17 divisions took part when combined with 'Sonnenwende' - the German 19th Army's attack from the northern flank of the Colmar pocket.

Let's also take a moment to appreciate the scale here: the Bulge was fundamentally only one major offensive on a single major axis and a handful of minor ones conducted by a single army group. By contrast, the Soviet 1944/45 winter-spring offensive involved no less than three major coordinated strategic offensives, each one conducted by up to 2-4 army groups on a similar number of axis and a utter host of minor offensives for distraction, diversionary, and pinning purposes.

*As a rule, the Soviets found that for breakthrough sectors, a width of 12 kilometers in closed terrain and 15 kilometers in open terrain is the minimum, with 20-35 kilometers being the ideal. Any more, and your forces are liable to become too dispersed to achieve a breakthrough. Any less, and you run into the twin problems of congestion and enemy artillery fire from the shoulders being able to interdict the insertion of tactical and operational exploitation echelons, which resulted in excessive casualties and slow penetration. On the few occasions they actually attempted an operational concentration, the WAllies made the latter mistake: their breakthrough sectors tended to be 6-7 kilometers wide.

Nor were all other sectors stronger. Weak points in the front are inevitable. To achieve the overwhelming tactical concentrations they did against the Germans from what were much modest strategic and operational superiority, the Soviets likewise had to economize on assets in passive and non-essential sectors, relying on deception practices to make those sectors seem stronger then they actually were.

I don't deny that the Soviet army could concentrate far greater, more amply supplied forces for a multipronged offensive than the Germans could in 1944. The contention is that the conditions that existed in the Ardennes in December of that year cannot be pasted 1:1 to the Allied frontline on the Elbe and North German plain. Weather conditions, detectability, and force ratios would be much different.

This makes a lot of assumptions: firstly, it assumes that the massive concentration is detected. Given the scale and effectiveness of Soviet maskirovka techniques, proven effective not only against the Germans but also against the Anglo-Americans in subsequent Cold War proxy wars, this is dubious. Secondly, the opening of the attack would involve a coordinated and deeply sophisticated preparatory bombardment with heavy air and artillery attacks against WAllied artillery and assumes that WAllied artillery would be able to cope with this. Despite it's greater tactical proficiency, WAllied artillery on the key breakthrough sectors is liable to fair no better in countering Soviet artillery concentrations that outweigh them 35+:1 than the Germans did. They would most likely be too busy getting counterbatteried to death to effectively provide defensive fires.

Massive concentrations, by nature, tend to be difficult to conceal. I think more of the deception on the Soviets' part was not that an attack wouldn't come, but rather the direction and objectives of the attack once it actually started. Once the hypothetical attack began, even allowing for the Allies to be caught off-guard as to the above, it would be extremely difficult for the Soviets to suppress their artillery because of the latter's shoot and scoot capability, redundant communications networks, and pressure by Allied tactical air power.

This was observed on numerous occasions even when the balance of ground forces was drastically in favor of the Germans; for example, at Mortain, during the 6th Panzer Army's own assault in the Ardennes, and even in Nordwind (where the Germans had an advantage in terms of number of divisions committed). They couldn't actually crush the American units and where their maneuver forces were able to bypass them they left behind 'islands' of resistance that were still in contact with artillery to the rear. At Hoefen in December 1944 a single field artillery battalion, the 196th, fired 3,600 rounds from its twelve 105mm howitzers in a single 9 and a half hour period, while at Monschau on December 18th the 62nd armored field artillery battalion's 18 SP guns fired 1,826 rounds and "E" troop, 38th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron (with 6 x 75mm SP guns) fired 941 - these were regimental level actions.

Thirdly, WAllied air attacks against Soviet concentrations would, by necessity, bring them down to levels where they would invariably entangle with the Red Air Force in conditions which the VVS was built to fight in far more effectively than their WAllied counterparts (ie: low-altitude dogfighting over the heads of troops).

How effective would the VVS be in countering literally thousands of western ground attack aircraft? For the Soviets at least, even with all their experience, pitched air battles on the scale of Khalkhin Gol in 1939 were rare and the density of aircraft there was several times higher than the average on the Eastern Front in World War II. Zhukov even commented that he never saw such air battles like those he witnessed in Mongolia.

If the fighting against the Japanese in a remote border skirmish represented the most intense air combat faced by the VVS (or close to it), they would be in for a rude awakening against the Anglo-Americans.

Fourthly, those CAS aircraft which are able to make it past the immense air battles would then have to contend with heavy Soviet AAA presence: during the Vistula-Oder offensive, the Soviets protected their key breakthrough sectors with dense AAA concentrations of up to 50 AA guns-per-kilometer. And finally, there is the assumption that those CAS which makes it past both the VVS and the AAA would be excessively disruptive to the concentrations, but this does not jive well with the actual historical evidence of the Red Army's experience conducting breakthrough-exploitation in the face of air attack: the Luftwaffe as well in the summer of 1944 made notable attempts at attacking massed Soviet tank assaults exploiting breaches in their defenses. During the L'vov-Sandomierz Offensive, for example, the Luftwaffe launched concerted air raids at two Soviet tank armies moving through the Koltuv corridor as they sought to penetrate the German defenses. The Koltuv Corridor was unusually narrow for a Soviet breakthrough sector and as a result the Luftwaffe was provided with an opportune target rich environment. Despite this, there is little evidence they had much impact on the Soviet advance despite numerous Soviet reports detailing the constant raids.

Probably because Luftwaffe strength on the Eastern Front was anemic. According to "Strategy for Defeat" pp. 285-286, Luftflotte 4 covering the Rumanian-Hungarian frontier consisted of only 845 aircraft, of which 205 were fighters and 390 ground attack, while Luftlotte 6 covering Army Group Center's front had 775, of which 100 were fighters, 100 ground-attack, and 370 bombers. Therefore over that whole enormous area the Germans had only about 305 fighters, 400 ground-attack planes, and 370 'long-range' bombers (without commentary on operational readiness). As if this weren't enough, the wiki article notes that the German commander, General Harpe, had no direct control over the air forces!

Compared with this, the USAAF alone had 5,559 heavy bombers in theaters vs Germany in April 1945, along with 1,444 medium bombers, 1,069 light bombers (including 977 A-20/A-26), and 6,003 fighters. And of course, the USAAF alone accounted for only a bit more than half of Allied air strength by numbers. Could you imagine how the long supply columns necessary to sustain armored or mechanized forces would have got on under these conditions? Likely the end effect would have been to force the Soviet army (like the Germans and Japanese) to restrict their movements to night-time or poor weather conditions, which in turn would have hampered their ability to conduct offensives (or any movement at all).

At the time of surrender, only 4 Allied armies were in contact with Soviet forces: the American 3rd, 1st, 9th, and British 2nd. The British 8th Army in northeastern Italy was also in an uneasy stand-off with Soviet equipped Yugoslav armies at the extreme southern end of the front. The American 15th Army was still mopping pockets of resistance in the Ruhr area while the Canadian 1st was finishing off the Germans in the Netherlands. The US 7th were further to the southwest, moving into Austria border. A Soviet assault westward would effectively see the Soviet forces in Eastern Germany, which would be 3 Soviet Army Groups (the 3 Belorussian Fronts) attacking up against a British and two American armies on the Western German Plain, two Army Groups (1st and 4th Ukrainian Front) against 3rd Army in Czechoslovakia, and the remaining two Soviet fronts, plus the Yugoslav armies, rushing towards a meeting engagement with about 3 WAllied armies in central Austria and Northeast Italy. For out-of-contact forces, the Soviets have their two Baltic Fronts (basically two more army groups) and the WAllies have three armies (the US 15th, the Canadian 1st, and the French 1st.

Really, the fact the Soviets have only one less Army Group (and unlike Soviet corps, divisions, and what have you, Soviet Fronts really were Army Group Strength) then the WAllies have armies rather says everything about the balance of combat power on the ground.

Your implication, I assume, being that Soviet forces near the border would have crumbled those armies before reinforcements could arrive?

That there are no obvious salient doesn't mean much: what matters is whether the Soviets can rapidly force breakthroughs through the WAllied frontlines on the key breakthrough sectors and achieve maneuver. Once they do, being fully motorized doesn't render one any less susceptible to all the problems that occurs when you have a mess of operational maneuver groups and forward detachments running around in your rear areas, raising all hell and endlessly pre-empting your attempts to redeploy. Air support is something both sides have, so ultimately it's a wash in operational-strategic terms.

What if the Soviets couldn't 'rapidly force breakthroughs?' The Allied armies weren't the hollowed out Army Group Center; massed infantry attacks would only lead to tragic results against a VT-barrage. What if their timetable were thrown off by a few days and then armored reinforcements showed up? If their exploitation forces failed to break out into the open then the offensive itself would have basically failed, while smaller 'flying columns' would face similar circumstances as Kampfgruppe Peiper in the Ardennes.

This was seen later in Manchuria: even when small mobile forces were able to create seams in the Japanese defense, they alone lacked the weight to bring about the complete collapse of resistance or undermine the IJA's withdrawal. And of course the Western Allies were far more powerful than the Kwantung Army.

They don't have to. If Stalin is smart, he can offer the French pretty good terms: total freedom, reparations from Germany, even the retention of their own occupation zone in exchange for dropping out of the WAllied coalition.

These are terms that France basically got anyway. Also, I would doubt that the French government would take such a promise seriously knowing how Stalin has operated in the past.

No German divisions were actually outright destroyed at Normandy. Mauled and gutted, yes, but not destroyed. The headquarters and significant cadres were able to escape back to the east to be reconstituted and refilled, returning to action in the autumn first to block the WAllied advance towards Germany and eventually attempt the Battle of the Bulge. The Colmar pocket was small (around 25,000-30,000 men) and mostly a French show, although American involvement was significant. The Ruhr Pocket was enormous and inordinately successful, but was conducted against forces that had effectively lost all combat value and even the very will to fight. It was also the only preplanned operational encirclement conducted by the Anglo-Americans in the entire Northwestern European campaign, with the Falaise and Colmar pockets being improvised (and in the latter case, almost accidental). The only other operational encirclement conducted by the Anglo-Americans in Northwest Europe was the pinning of the Fifteenth Army against the English Channel. It was a total failure: all German forces were successfully evacuated. That's a grand total of two successful pockets (the Ruhr and Colmar), one partial success/partial failure (Falaise) and one total failure (the pinning of the Fifteenth).

By contrast, the Soviets conducted fifteen operational encirclements in 1944 alone, all preplanned, in which more than 200 German divisions were destroyed. Around half of the pocketed formations were destroyed within twenty days, 30% held out for up to one-and-a-half months, and 20% managed to either partially or wholly escape encirclement.

"The battle for Normandy had cost the German army a total of 1,500 tanks, 3,500 guns, and 20,000 vehicles. They had lost around 450,000 men, 240,000 of these killed or wounded. More than 40 German divisions had been destroyed."

Going into greater detail, this is what happened to each of the divisions subordinate to the German Seventh and Fifteenth Armies during the Battle of Normandy:

- 265th Infantry Division - disbanded Oct. '44 (remnants trapped in Atlantic pockets)
- 275th " - destroyed at Falaise, reformed at Aachen
- 343rd " - surrendered at Brest September '44
- 353rd " - lost over half its strength by the time of the breakout at Falaise, reorganized as VGD
- 77th " - surrendered at St. Malo 15 August '44
- 266th " - surrendered at Brest Sept. '44
- 91st Luftlande Division - destroyed Cherbourg June '44 - escaped remnants later rebuilt and mauled by Third Army at Rennes
- 243rd Infantry Division - destroyed Cherbourg June '44 - remnants defended bocage territory and combined with 77th ID above
- 319th " - Channel Islands
- 352nd " - destroyed June '44 (it was opposite Omaha beach); remnants amalgamated into other divisions. Reformed as 352nd VGD
- 709th " - surrendered Cherbourg June '44
- 716th " - withdrawn from Normandy 10 July 1944
- 2nd Fallschirmjaeger Division - surrendered at Brest Sept. '44
- 3rd " - almost destroyed at Falaise - reformed with replacements from 3 Luftwaffe Field Regiments
- 5th " - withdrawn to Netherlands
- 344th Infantry Division - reorganized
- 348th " - disbanded
- 17th LW Feld Division - disbanded
- 245th Infantry Division - avoided heavy combat until Allied advance into Low Countries
- 711th " - suffered heavy casualties at Cabourg (NE of Caen), pulled out of the line
- 18th LW Feld Division - reorganized
- 47th Infantry Division - destroyed Mons Sept. '44, reorganized as 47th VGD
- 49th " - fought at Mons, reorganized with fortress regiments
- 19th LW Feld Division - sent to Italy
- 48th Infantry Division - driven back to Metz (later absorbed into 559th VGD)
- 84th " - destroyed at Falaise, reorganized
- 85th " - escaped Falaise with 1.5 infantry battalions, 2 field pieces, and misc. support troops,
- 326th " - destroyed at Falaise, rebuilt as VGD
- 331st " - destroyed Sept. '44
- 346th " - retreated to Holland
- 712th " - fought in Holland, sent to East
- 182nd Reserve Infantry Division - destroyed at Caen, reformed and deployed in Slovkia
- 1st SS Panzer Division - lost all tanks and artillery
- 12th " - nearly destroyed, ordered to retreat to Germany 8 September 44
- 17th " - practically destroyed, reduced to four kampfgruppen
- Panzer Lehr Division - practically destroyed, as few as 5 tanks and 6 105mm howitzers remaining by Sept. Commander General Bayerlein described Pz Lehr as "annihilated"
- 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division - fought only in Italy
- 21st Panzer Division - practically destroyed at Falaise, merged with 16th LW Field Division
- 89th Infantry Division - 'crushed' during Operation Totalize and taken out of the line
- 276th " - nearly destroyed, reorganized as a VGD
- 277th " - destroyed at Falaise, reorganized as a VGD
- 708th " - destroyed at Falaise, reorganized as a VGD
- 2nd Panzer Division - nearly destroyed at Falaise, absorbed 352nd ID
- 9th " - nearly destroyed at Falaise
- 116th " - nearly destroyed at Falaise, 600 men and 12 tanks escaped
- 2nd SS Panzer Division - lost most of its tanks, still reported personnel strength as 12,357
- 9th " - escaped encirclement, pulled out of the line to rest at Arnhem
- 10th " - broke out of Falaise pocket, retreated to Belgium and was sent to Arnhem
- 16th LW Feld Division - destroyed, reorganized
- 272nd Infantry Division - escaped Falaise, retreated to Germany
===============================================================================================
Total: 38 infantry/LW/parachute divisions (22 destroyed), 12 panzer (c. 8 destroyed)

I mean, if you count "destroyed" as 100% casualties - no one escaped - then the total will be lower but the incidence in both theaters would go down. Volume II of "The Collapse of the German Army in the East" lists 32 divisions destroyed on the Anglo-American fronts during the summer of 1944 as opposed to 52 on the Eastern front during the same period (pp. 886-890). Of the 32, 18 were reorganized (56.25%), while of the 52 on the Eastern Front, 28 were reorganized (53.85%). In neither case were either panzer or panzergrenadier divisions disbanded, and the fact that certain divisions were reorganized suggests that at least some elements survived to form the 'seeds' of the reconstructed units. So from this, there is little evidence that German divisions defeated on the Eastern Front were any more thoroughly beaten than those in the West.
 
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The 6th panzer army's initial frontage was only 23 miles wide, but General Dietrich's assault force concentrated in less than half that area. According to Dupuy, 6th panzer army concentrated at least 657 light, medium, and heavy guns and 340 multiple rocket launchers for the initial bombardment - or roughly 55 to 65 pieces per km of front. Dietrich also had a 6 to 1 superiority in troops at the breakthrough points. Both of these were less than what the Soviets commonly preferred (200 guns/km and a 10:1 superiority in manpower), but it wasn't exactly a slap. Although I don't have the German fire plan on hand the barrage was described as massive and German guns typically fired more rounds per barrel on the western front than in the east, where they still out-shot the Soviets. Fortunately for the Americans, much of this fire was ineffective because of Hitler's orders against pre-registration, lack of trained fire-control personnel and equipment, and the dug in US positions.

You are making my point: the attack was vastly weaker then any Soviet equivalent, particularly in the all-important case of artillery: 55 to 65 pieces per kilometer of front is barely anything! And that the Americans described the German barrages as heavy doesn't really mean much: Americans always described German artillery fire as heavy, even when it was actually positively paltry by any objective measure. I'm not sure where the claim that German artillery in the west fired more rounds per barrel on the west comes from: German munition expenditures in the east were higher along with the number of guns they had. And certainly the claim doesn't mean much by 1945, when the Soviets were outshooting even the Americans. Nor did the Soviets by '45 suffer the sort of problems German artillery did in the winter of '44/'45: their intricate fireplans were far heavier then anything the Germans put on, planned with exquisite use of centralized personnel and equipment assets that the Soviets by '45 had quite a lot of, and the Americans don't actually have well-developed dug-in positions they have spent months in.

The 1st SS panzer corps (1st and 12th SS panzer divisions, 3rd parachute division, 12th, 277th, and 326th volksgrenadier divisions, and 150th panzer brigade) attacked on the seam between the 99th and 106th divisions' sectors. The situation was particularly bad in front of Krinkelt, where two 99th Division regiments (the 393rd and 394th) were opposed by the 3rd parachute division and two volksgrenadier divisions, with the two panzer divisions making their attacks the next day. But, although the Germans were able to gain ground they could not destroy the US forces and the cost incurred by them was horrendous. Then the American front line consolidated and they went nowhere.

By all accounts, including the maps you posted, the panzer divisions largely slid around to the south in response to the failure of the Volksgrenadier, which as you already pointed out suffered from lack of adequate artillery support and armored support.

On the whole they might have been weaker, but on the tactical level there were cases where US troops were outnumbered 15 to 1. Training and motivation is also questionable: to the Germans, they were fighting for their home soil and were determined to protect their 'fatherland' from the Allied invaders. Additionally even the volksgrenadier divisions were formed on the basis of veteran NCOs and German officers were almost uniformly good.

The volksgrenadier divisions proved seriously deficient and American personnel themselves expressed shock at their ineptitude and lack of drive on the offensive. Often in those tactical engagements where US troops were outnumbered 15 to 1, the attackers didn't have anything but infantry whereas the US defenders were able to call on artillery support and had tanks with them. Against Soviet combined arms armies, they'd be facing... well, combined arms.

What forces did the Germans throw into Byelorussia that were comparable to Eisenhower's reinforcements? On what scale and over what timeframe, and over what distances?

3 Panzer Divisions (5th, 4th, and 12th) and multiple infantry divisions as well as the 28th light (mountain) division, around 50,000 men all told. All were ordered out on the 24th and arrived on the 26th or 27th. The distance varied, but the average seems to have been about 400 kilometers, as-the-crow flies.

At least 17 divisions took part when combined with 'Sonnenwende' - the German 19th Army's attack from the northern flank of the Colmar pocket.

Which given that German divisions could be as weak as battalions by this point in the war, doesn't really tell me much.

I don't deny that the Soviet army could concentrate far greater, more amply supplied forces for a multipronged offensive than the Germans could in 1944. The contention is that the conditions that existed in the Ardennes in December of that year cannot be pasted 1:1 to the Allied frontline on the Elbe and North German plain. Weather conditions, detectability, and force ratios would be much different.

I don't see why weather conditions or detectability would change. Force ratios is a matter of the Soviets ability to pinpoint weak points, and economize on forces in passive sectors secret to build up concentrations, which they proved much better at then the WAllies. And while it is true weather conditions are different, this favors the Soviets as much as it favors the WAllies.

Massive concentrations, by nature, tend to be difficult to conceal.

Sure. Which makes it all the more remarkable that the Soviets managed it with the consistency they did from '44-on. As did their later clients in the Cold War. Maskirovka was never an optional add-on like it was in the west, but rather a mandatory accompaniment to every operational plan.

I think more of the deception on the Soviets' part was not that an attack wouldn't come, but rather the direction and objectives of the attack once it actually started.

Historically, that tended to be enough.

Once the hypothetical attack began, even allowing for the Allies to be caught off-guard as to the above, it would be extremely difficult for the Soviets to suppress their artillery because of the latter's shoot and scoot capability, redundant communications networks, and pressure by Allied tactical air power.

I'm not sure how any of that matters when the artillery is smashed by the opening barrage after already being identified by deep-infiltration reconnaissance teams prior to the offensive (the predecessors to the spetsnatz). Assuming the Soviet fire-planners do their jobs right, there wouldn't be time to shoot or scoot, communications don't mean much if the guns are already mostly exploded scrap metal, and tactical air would face all the issues of interception and AA fire and getting routed in in a timely enough manner.

This was observed on numerous occasions even when the balance of ground forces was drastically in favor of the Germans; for example, at Mortain, during the 6th Panzer Army's own assault in the Ardennes, and even in Nordwind (where the Germans had an advantage in terms of number of divisions committed). They couldn't actually crush the American units and where their maneuver forces were able to bypass them they left behind 'islands' of resistance that were still in contact with artillery to the rear. At Hoefen in December 1944 a single field artillery battalion, the 196th, fired 3,600 rounds from its twelve 105mm howitzers in a single 9 and a half hour period, while at Monschau on December 18th the 62nd armored field artillery battalion's 18 SP guns fired 1,826 rounds and "E" troop, 38th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron (with 6 x 75mm SP guns) fired 941 - these were regimental level actions.

German maneuver forces bypassed American positions not because they couldn't crush them themselves, but because doing so would take time and expend resources the Germans knew they could ill-afford to expend. That the subsequent follow on forces, largely consisting of low-quality infantry lacking in armor and often with only a scattering of artillery (as they lacked fuel or even horses to displace their guns forward toward the pockets or bring up ammunition for them), then that they proved unable to handle these pockets of resistance should not be that surprising. To try and turn around from this and claim they'd then be able to handle the vastly greater firepower of Soviet follow-on forces, which consisted of veteran combined-arms and shock armies each mustering 400 or more AFVs and 1,100 or more artillery pieces and the ability to both transport and supply them, is dubious.

How effective would the VVS be in countering literally thousands of western ground attack aircraft? For the Soviets at least, even with all their experience, pitched air battles on the scale of Khalkhin Gol in 1939 were rare and the density of aircraft there was several times higher than the average on the Eastern Front in World War II. Zhukov even commented that he never saw such air battles like those he witnessed in Mongolia.

Probably adequately. Of course the average density for a entire war over thousands of kilometers of front lasting four years is going to outstrip that of a single battle lasting a few months. What's more relevant is comparing battles and when we do that, we can see that the claim that Khalkin Ghol was the biggest air battle the Soviets ever experienced is laughable: the Battle of Kursk is remembered as the single largest tank battle of all time, but it is also the single largest air battle of all time and the number of aircraft which clashed in the skies far outstripped anything experienced in Khalkin Ghol, as even a glance at the number of aircraft will tell you... or the number of sorties (one of the main measurements of intensity). "From May 22 to September 15, 1939, Soviet aviation performed 20,524 sorties, of which 14,458 (more than 70%) were departing in August-September." By comparison, the VVS and VPO forces supporting the defensive operations during the Battle of Kursk generated about double the latter number of sorties (28,161) in about a 1/5th of the time (7 days, July 5-12, as opposed to 47 in August-September 16). Total sorties generated by the Germans are unavailable, but the first day saw 4,475 sorties generated and apparently they managed another 4,000 again for the second before steadily slackening off. The spatial scale is also similar in this specific instance: the air engagements were overwhelmingly concentrated on the German breakthrough sectors, which were also about 60-70 kilometers across.

The model of Kursk also tells us largely what to expect: the two tactical air forces cancelling each other out on the operational-strategic scale.

Plus, if the Anglo-Americans just try and cram the maximum number of their aircraft into a singular air space, they are going to be spending a lot more time dodging each other then they are shooting at or dropping bombs on the enemy. One of those strange counter-intuitive facts about air warfare is that the larger the individual engagements got, the less lethal they became. In such really big fights, pilots spent more time dodging incoming fire and collisions than they did lining up careful shots themselves. Something that also
was hidden at the time because another fact of such really big fights is that overclaiming goes through the roof. When one enemy aircraft falls in flames, ten pilots all claim it as their kill.

The real advantage of numerical superiority in aircraft is more operational: you can have more aircraft doing more missions at a single time. Which means that at some point, the enemy air force is just going to have to accept they can't intercept all of your sorties, prioritize the more important ones, and hope their AA and passive measures are enough to deal with those they don't.

Handling WAllied tactical air power is within the Soviet air forces capabilities.

Compared with this, the USAAF alone had 5,559 heavy bombers in theaters vs Germany in April 1945, along with 1,444 medium bombers, 1,069 light bombers (including 977 A-20/A-26), and 6,003 fighters. And of course, the USAAF alone accounted for only a bit more than half of Allied air strength by numbers.

Huh... the WAllies are actually weaker in the air then I thought. According to Hyperwar, the entire RAF globally was 9,200 operational aircraft in May 1945. Assuming the proportion of fighters there is the same as with the Americans, that'd be 3,680 fighter aircraft for a total of 9,683 (ignoring that some RAF fighters would be fighting Japan) up against 8,078 fighters as of January 1st (and probably more by May: the Soviets produced some 10,000 fighters in the first half of 1945, but I don't have the loss figures). Factor in the fact that the WAllies lack dedicated CAS aircraft and instead devoted a proportion of their fighter strength to that task, it's entirely possible the Soviets actually come out ahead on the number of aircraft they can devote to air superiority.

Probably because Luftwaffe strength on the Eastern Front was anemic. According to "Strategy for Defeat" pp. 285-286, Luftflotte 4 covering the Rumanian-Hungarian frontier consisted of only 845 aircraft, of which 205 were fighters and 390 ground attack, while Luftlotte 6 covering Army Group Center's front had 775, of which 100 were fighters, 100 ground-attack, and 370 bombers. Therefore over that whole enormous area the Germans had only about 305 fighters, 400 ground-attack planes, and 370 'long-range' bombers (without commentary on operational readiness). As if this weren't enough, the wiki article notes that the German commander, General Harpe, had no direct control over the air forces!

Yes, the Luftwaffe was small. But small does not necessarily mean anemic. As a proportion of strength, the Luftwaffe in the east constituted 43% of the total Luftwaffe, a very significant minority, and included the overwhelming majority of their ground attack assets. Unlike in the west, the lack of any serious Soviet counterair campaign meant the Luftwaffe in the east never suffered the sort of decline in expertise until later on and so by maneuvering it's forces the Luftwaffe could and did still throw many of those aircraft together at a single section of the front in a fire brigade role, even if at the expense of the rest of the front. The VVS from '44 onwards tended to have air superiority, but it never enjoyed supremacy as the WAllies did and as a result the Luftwaffe was never a non-factor in either Soviet planning or execution like it was in the west.

Your implication, I assume, being that Soviet forces near the border would have crumbled those armies before reinforcements could arrive?

Possibly. Of course, fates of war are a thing and it's entirely possible that the WAllies figure things out or the Soviets just plain ol' screw up. I mean, I will admit I regard the Soviets bagging a WAllied army as something of a "best-case" scenario for the Russians.

What if the Soviets can't 'rapidly force breakthroughs?' The Allied armies weren't the hollowed out Army Group Center; massed infantry attacks would only lead to tragic results against a VT-barrage. What if their timetable were thrown off by a few days and then armored reinforcements showed up? If their exploitation forces failed to break out into the open then the offensive itself would have basically failed, while smaller 'flying columns' would face similar circumstances as Kampfgruppe Peiper in the Ardennes.

Certainly the Soviets might not rapidly force breakthroughs: the WAllies may detect their preparations ahead of time and manage successful counterconcentrations or the Soviets might make enough mistakes to give the WAllies that sort of breathing room. But both the Germans and the WAllies (in Soviet-trained wars during the Cold War and post-Cold War-era) were rather consistently duped and taken off-balance by Soviet (or Soviet-esque) deception efforts, so while the former possibility is there, it isn't particularly likely. The latter is, however: it's not like the Soviets were perfect or anything. But in the case it did happen, the result would probably be more in line with what you said: a slugging match that drives back and bleeds the WAllies badly (suffering far worse then anything they experienced at the Germans, even if not as badly as losing an entire army outright), but is also exhausting for the Soviets.

That said, the characterization of Soviet offensives as simply massed infantry attacks may be wonderfully in line with post-war German stereotypes, but fits ill with actual Soviet practice by this point in the war: tendency in 1944/45 was to infiltrate the enemy positions while they were suppressed by the artillery preparation* (which would afterwards fall into an "artillery offensive" that would support the infantry through the penetration of the enemy's second line of defenses) so that by the time the barrage ended, the enemy would pop-up only to find the Soviet troops already in their positions, submachine guns already pointing at them, with escorting direct-fire artillery and armor already taken position to provide over watch fire. If the surviving American artillerists want to drop rounds on their own infantry positions and wipe out their own forces, then they are free to do so.

*And yes, this did mean taking significant casualties from their own artillery, but that's a price the Soviets were willing to pay to ensure enemy defenses were broken as quickly as possible.

This was seen later in Manchuria: even when small mobile forces were able to create seams in the Japanese defense, they alone lacked the weight to bring about the complete collapse of resistance or undermine the IJA's withdrawal. And of course the Western Allies were far more powerful than the Kwantung Army.

Even leaving aside that this isn't entirely accurate (the position of major Soviet exploitation forces at the time of surrender very much put them in place to undermine considerable portions of the enemy withdrawal on a strategic scale), if you expect the Anglo-Americans of 1945 to exhibit the same sort of slavish, practically suicidal devotion to duty, that the IJA did, I have a bridge to sell you.

These are terms that France basically got anyway.

Uh, what? When did the French get such terms from the Soviet Union? When was France ever allied with countries at war with the Soviet Union in 1945 and was facing the prospect (real or imagined) of Soviet troops pouring over the Rhine to occupy it again only to receive such an offer?
 
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And well let's all reminder that for the moment, France is De Gaulle. He certainly doesn't like the Anglo-Saxon but he sure as hell prefer them compared to an Europe full of Soviets Republics
 
And well let's all reminder that for the moment, France is De Gaulle. He certainly doesn't like the Anglo-Saxon but he sure as hell prefer them compared to an Europe full of Soviets Republics

A fair point. There'll probably be debate, but I do think De Gaulle would ultimately come out against it and while stating "France is De Gaulle" might be a bit of an exaggeration, he has enough political weight that he can very much make it stick.
 
. the WAllies are actually weaker in the air then I thought. According to Hyperwar, the entire RAF globally was 9,200 operational aircraft in May 1945. Assuming the proportion of fighters there is the same as with the Americans, that'd be 3,680 fighter aircraft for a total of 9,683 (ignoring that some RAF fighters would be fighting Japan) up against 8,078 fighters as of January 1st (and probably more by May: the Soviets produced some 10,000 fighters in the first half of 1945, but I don't have the loss figures). Factor in the fact that the WAllies lack dedicated CAS aircraft and instead devoted a proportion of their fighter strength to that task, it's entirely possible the Soviets actually come out ahead on the number of aircraft they can devote to air superiority.

(Well I just checked and the horse still had some life in it, so I’ll kick it again😜)

As I mentioned before, if the Wallies we’re running around the clock strategic bombing of Soviet forces and marshaling areas, then the Soviet Air Force would have a tough time allocating planes. One of the advantages of not have dedicated CAS aircraft, is once they’ve dropped their ordinance, they are free ranging fighters again. Plus the Soviets will have their hands full with the 1945 model fighters the Wallies have to protect the bombers. Again, concentrated strategic bombing, (effects of and defense of), is something the Soviets have no experience with. Of course the condition of some of the German cities they’ve just occupied might give them pause.

ric350
 
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