This is from Operation Unthinkable: The Third World War: British Plans to invade the Soviet Union by Jonathan Walker
The Soviets had fewer tanks than the Allies, fewer (and lower quality) aircraft, a weaker logistical net, practically no maritime capability and an economy running on fumes: they would have lost, badly.
From what I recall, they also have the choice to either demobilize large portions of the Red Army.... or starve as the harvest rots away in the fields. Actually theoretically I suppose they could assign all those German POW's to agricultural work instead of their OTL rock breaking duties, but that still will require someone to guard them.
That’s an interesting point. I wonder what the caloric intake was for the frontline Russian soldier at this point, vs a Wallie soldier.
ric350
Only some of these quotes actually appear in the book as you claim. Most do not. Also, how is the WAllies making it only as far as the Elbe supposed to be a victory for Operation Unthinkable? That's not even a fraction of the distance to the ultimate objective.
Erm, no. The Soviets have more tanks (35,000 vs 22,000, in terms of global stock. WAllied figures in Europe were 19,000 total while the Soviets were just shy of 13,000 in operational forces and something on the order of 18,000 non-operational), Soviet logistical net was quite capable of sustaining their forces in Central Europe at record levels, their aircraft were fewer but not that much fewer and of comparable quality, and their economy had ceased to run on fumes in 1943. Soviet corps may only be as strong as WAllied divisions, but the Soviets have more than two corps for every WAllied division (174 Rifle Corps, 36 Tank/Mechanized Corps, and 6 Cavalry Corps as opposed to 80 infantry divisions and 23 WAllied armored). The Soviets would have lost eventually, but they would have been able to score some major victories early on.
Soviet agriculture had been recovering since 1944.
That's hard to say, since Soviet caloric intake was heavily augmented through the use of local foraging. In terms of daily consumption from central command, a US Infantry division in 1944 received 100 tons in rations per day as opposed to a Soviet rifle division which received 66 tons daily. There are two problems with such a base comparison however. Firstly, Soviet supply consumption rose much rapidly with each year of the war as Soviet supply itself improved: in 1943, the same figure had been 35 tons. It would not be unreasonable to assume another increased occurred between 1944 and '45, but I don't have any figures for '45. Secondly, the proper comparison isn't a Soviet rifle division (which by mid-1945 were more regiments with division-level artillery support) but Soviet Rifle Corps (which by mid-1945 were more divisions with corps-level artillery support), which would be about double to quintuple the figure.
Only some of these quotes actually appear in the book as you claim. Most do not. Also, how is the WAllies making it only as far as the Elbe supposed to be a victory for Operation Unthinkable? That's not even a fraction of the distance to the ultimate objective.
Erm, no. The Soviets have more tanks (35,000 vs 22,000, in terms of global stock. WAllied figures in Europe were 19,000 total while the Soviets were just shy of 13,000 in operational forces and something on the order of 18,000 non-operational), Soviet logistical net was quite capable of sustaining their forces in Central Europe at record levels, their aircraft were fewer but not that much fewer and of comparable quality, and their economy had ceased to run on fumes in 1943. Soviet corps may only be as strong as WAllied divisions, but the Soviets have more than two corps for every WAllied division (174 Rifle Corps, 36 Tank/Mechanized Corps, and 6 Cavalry Corps as opposed to 80 infantry divisions and 23 WAllied armored). The Soviets would have lost eventually, but they would have been able to score some major victories early on.
These figures for 21st army group may include ranks in France bearing in mind many 1945 French divisions initially reformed with older British gear.Later I found that the numbers roughly corresponded to US planning for 'War Plan PINCHER,' but that was after the fact.
The Allies had far more than 22,000 tanks and TDs worldwide, that number is an approximation for the combined Western European and Mediterranean theaters (and in reality was probably well below the actual total of every single such vehicle on the continent). Looking first at the example of US medium tanks, this is what I mean:
On page 454 of "Logistical Support of the Armies" volume II, it is stated that 'on the eve of the Rhine crossing' (that is, March 1945),
"theater stocks totaled 7,620, only 159 tanks short of the total T/E and reserve requirement of 7,779. Against a T/E requirement for 5,477 the armies actually had 6,606 on hand, giving them a reserve of 1,129 against an authorized reserve of 1,535. While the armies’ stocks included nearly 600 unserviceable tanks, the armies had another 600 in reserve, and additional tanks intended for the army reserves were in theater pipelines."
My interpretation is that the 'unit rosters,' if they can be called that, had 5,477 medium tanks with another 1,129 in immediate army reserve, 600 of which were unserviceable. ETO as a whole had an additional 1,014 on the continent to be delivered to the armies as needed. The figure that Zaloga uses for March 1945 (6,249 M4 75mm/76mm and 612 M4 105mm, a total of 6,821), closely matches the above 6,606 for what the armies actually had on hand without including the additional theater stocks.
The situation is similar for the British/Commonwealth: Zaloga provides a figure of 4,241 tanks in NW Europe on 5 May 1945, but the 21st Army Group's After Action Report gives 9,248 for the same date.
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Because of the size of the discrepancy (21st Army Group's number is twice as big), it's hard to say what the two represent. Maybe the British just had a glut of tanks in reserve and 4,200 was TO&E only? In any case we can confidently assume that the western Allies had far more than 19,000 tanks and TDs in Western Europe and that the Soviet operational forces (12.3 k plus 300 STAVKA reserve) would have been greatly outnumbered even before Italy is accounted for. The 'Unthinkable' document also understates the number of Allied divisions available and of course doesn't include nondivisional units, of which there were many.
These figures for 21st army group may include ranks in France bearing in mind many 1945 French divisions initially reformed with older British gear.
Later I found that the numbers roughly corresponded to US planning for 'War Plan PINCHER,' but that was after the fact.
The Allies had far more than 22,000 tanks and TDs worldwide,
On page 454 of "Logistical Support of the Armies" volume II, it is stated that 'on the eve of the Rhine crossing' (that is, March 1945),
Because of the size of the discrepancy (21st Army Group's number is twice as big), it's hard to say what the two represent. Maybe the British just had a glut of tanks in reserve and 4,200 was TO&E only?
The 'Unthinkable' document also understates the number of Allied divisions available and of course doesn't include nondivisional units, of which there were many.
possibly the discrepancy is caused by the fact that Zaloga lists "British" armo(u)red strength in NW Europe (4 armored divs), but 21 Army Group also had 2 Canadian and 1 Polish armoured divisions plus several armoured brigades. These and the backups for those units may account for the difference.
Eh? Warplan Pincher involved far more pessimistic figures (and results) than anything for Unthinkable, given that the US had canned 90 percent of it's combat power by then and lacked the mobilization system to rapidly regenerate it. Even just bringing any of the existing divisions on the CONUS and shipping it over to Europe would take over half-a-year. By contrast, the Red Army retained much of it's combat power by retaining it's equipment rather then scrapping it and retained the ability to fully mobilize and deploy all of it's active formations within a month, with the first wave of newly remobilized forces appearing within the next month. Hence, in Pincher, there was absolutely zero doubt the Soviets would roll all the way to Pyrennees (and even beyond) there, as well as to the Suez in the Middle East. Any postulation of Pincher holding the Soviets at the Inner-German Border, much less drive them back to the Elbe, was never even considered and even in hindsight is insane to suggest.
Next page:
"In light of this increasingly favorable situation the War Department notified the theater in mid-April that it contemplated eliminating the 35-percent reserve being created for ETOUSA in the United States. The theater first opposed such action, pointing out the difficulty of maintaining the full 28-percent reserve in the army areas in view of the large percentage of total theater stocks that was constantly in the pipeline or under repair. " Page -455
Worth noting that by Soviet accounting, AFVs in transit or under repair are considered part of "nonoperational forces". Given that 14 percent can not, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered a "large percentage" and that SHAEF was complaining about it's reserve getting reduced precisely because such amounts were either in-transit or under repair, it's clear that the figures of on-hand AFVs is once against not equivalent to that of the Soviet figure for operational AFVs.
Seems more likely it was a misprint or miscount. I cannot find any other source which credits the British in Europe with having 9,000 AFVs.
No it doesn't? If anything, it overstates it given that the number of divisions actually in theater in May 1945 was 89 as opposed to the 103 posited by Unthinkable. And yeah, it doesn't count non-divisional units, but that goes for the Soviets as much as it does for the WAllies (mostly: the Unthinkable planners did seem to count some of the independent tank brigades). You toss those in, the advantage still is with the Soviets.
No, they are part of Zaloga's count, as he discusses them right after mentioning the 4 British armored divisions:
"Montgomery's 21st Army Group was filled out by other formations with Canada providing two armoured divisions and three infantry divisions; one Polish division also served with the Canadians. There were also several small Allied formations attached, inlcuding the Belgian Brigade, the Royal Netherlands Brigade, the Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade, and the 1st Polish Parachute Brigade."
He then proceeds to list them in the brief OOB chart, so clearly his AFV figures includes them too.
In that case, to include all nonoperational forces of both sides it would be necessary to add in tanks available in the CONUS and British Isles. From the above, we can see that the Americans alone had about 6,000 operable medium tanks immediately on hand in the field armies in ETO even excluding the Mediterranean, the same number as for the Soviets (6,059).
However, if the Allies were forced to fight right at the end of the war in May, the situation was different. According to Appendix 5 of "The War in Western Europe, part II," the breakdown in NW Europe was as follows:
British/Commonwealth: 18 divisions (including 6 armored and 1 airborne - the British 1st Airborne Division does not appear here)
Poland: 1 armored division
USA: 61 divisions (including 15 armored and 4 airborne)
France: 13 divisions (including 3 armored)
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Therefore, just in northwest Europe the Allies had 94 active divisions, of which 25 were armored and 5 airborne. In addition to this the 21st Army Group had 9 independent armored brigades and at least one infantry brigade, the 214th. The armored brigades were large, each with about 200 tanks, maybe the equivalent of 7 tank divisions.
In the US Army, 31 separate tank battalions and 52 TD battalions were active in ETOUSA on 1 January 1945, with 6 more tank and 4 more TD battalions en route.
There were additionally 13 mechanized cavalry groups (regiments), 7 separate infantry regiments, a parachute infantry regiment (the 517th), the 117th cavalry squadron (battalion), and about 3 independent battalions.
By May 8th, non-divisional artillery forces amounted to 238 separate battalions:
4 x75mm36 x 105mm16 x 105mm SP17 x 4.5 inch gun71 x 155mm howitzer30 x 155mm gun6 x 155mm SP38 x 203mm howitzer5 x 203mm gun15 x 240mm howitzer
Almost all US artillery battalions had three batteries and 12 tubes total, the exceptions being the 105mm SP (which had 18), the 203mm gun (which had 6), and the 240mm howitzer (also 6). In the whole US Army there were 347 AAA battalions (without breakdown of location). One exception was the 18th Field Artillery Battalion (72 x 4.5 inch "Xylophone" 8-tube rocket launchers); the 79th (provisional) field artillery battalion and the 244th field artillery battalion also temporarily operated German weapons.
Last but not least, there were a large number of Engineer Combat Battalions that could and did fight with distinction as infantry in an emergency. These were distributed at a rate of 3-6 battalions per engineer group, which would in turn be allocated at a rate of 1-2 per Corps or Army as needed.
Therefore, in Western Europe the Allies had the equivalent of about 52 armored divisions, 70 infantry or mechanized divisions, and 5 airborne divisions. In the Mediterranean they had the equivalent of 7 armored divisions, 16 infantry divisions, and 1 mountain division.
The OOB for the 21st Army Group was not the same thing as "British" tank strength, since there were non-British units under Montgomery.
Although I think we should probably wind up ending this discussion before we wind up hijacking what is johnboys TL. I'll let you have the last word, if you'd like?
Actually I am enjoying the discussion and there are many varying sources of information.I'll make another thread.
Actually I am enjoying the discussion and there are many varying sources of information.
Which nicely misses the point: my quoted section indicates a large portion of the on-hand AFVs are in fact inoperable by Soviet figures. Thus, that 6,000 American "operable" mediums figure is not, in fact, equivalent to the Soviets own operational forces figure, but rather combines the operational forces figure and a chunk of the nonoperational forces by Soviet accounting.
But even leaving that aside, are we seriously going to pretend that a American tank which would take months to get across the Atlantic and deploy to the frontline thus have no chance of participating in the opening phase of the war is the equivalent of Soviet vehicles which would only take days or weeks at most to deploy to the frontlines and thus very much be able to participate in the opening phase of the war? Seriously?
[snipped]
Great. Conglomerate the Soviet units I've listed above together along the same lines and tell me how many division-equivalents they are worth. I'm willing to bet just at a glance that the resulting number remains much higher than what the WAllies possess.
He pretty specifically discusses them in both the text and the OOB, thus there is no reason not to believe they are not included in the numerical figures given.
According to the text citation, there were 7,620 mediums in theater stocks in March, of which 6,606 were directly on hand in the armies. Out of this number 600 were inoperable, meaning that the various field armies still had 6,000 working mediums on hand to fill a TO&E requirement of 5,477. Since the said 6,000 tanks were neither in transit or under repair, they were, by your accounting, "operable."
It's not unreasonable: the time needed to ship cargo across the Atlantic is measured in days and there were already fully staffed armored forces in the US. On the Soviet side, how many of their remaining tanks were in remote theaters (Manchuria, Central Asia), undergoing repairs, or stripped for parts? They would also need the necessary support (motor transport, mechanics, POLs, etc) to operate large armored forces and would have to do so under air attack.
- First, what was the proportion of the above that were actually available in Europe? For example, this source has 154 Rifle Corps in the European Fronts and VGK reserve at the end of the war. What kind of forces did the Soviets actually have opposite the Allies in Germany and the Balkans?
- Second, what were the actual strengths, on average, of the Soviet armored and artillery forces? The non-divisional artillery units were probably at or near full strength (guesstimating), but I don't know about tanks. According to Niehorster the armored regiments had about 10 to 21 vehicles during the Berlin offensive while brigades had an authorized strength of 65. I know that in Manchuria there were several tank brigades whose strength at the start of the fighting were at about that level, but of course the Far East forces were not broken up and reorganized to the same extent as those in Europe.
- Third, what kind of artillery forces were really available to the average rifle division or corps? If the average rifle division had an authorized strength of 3,600, 4,000, or 4,500 (and many were below even this), to properly staff a division artillery regiment (3-4 battalions) would on its own require over 2,000 men.
I also wonder what effect round the clock strategic bombing would have on the Russians. AFAIK they had never experienced anything like it, in the sense that Germany (and Japan) had. After all the Luftwaffe was a tactical Air Force. The Wallied heavy bomber force could rain destruction down on the Russian forces and staging areas to terrible effect. Especially since the further west they went, the greater number of “choke” points would be created. They would also have a tough time trying to intercept those bombers given their operational altitudes, and fighter cover, and little if any early force detection. Plus the Russian Air Force would have it’s hands full covering tactical Wallies air attacks.
ric350