Berlin dialect

According to this map, Berlin has a central German dialect, but taking a look at the map, I would assume that it has at an earlier point had a Low German dialect (as the areas both directly east and west are Low German). Anyone who knows about this? Why does not Berlin have a Low German dialect? Is it because of influence from Standard German?
Continental_West_Germanic_languages.png
 
This German wiki page actually answers the question. You might try to run it through google translate. Its too long for me to translate every detail.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berliner_Dialekt#Geschichte

But for a short summary you are correct. Berlin developed a metropolitan dialect because of the city's nature as a melting pot for immigrants from different regions. From Berlin this new dialect spread to the surrounding countryside that had been dominated by Low German before.
 
And here is a map of the German dialects as they were in 1910, that is before the expulsion of Germans from areas that today is part of Poland.

German-Dialects-1910.jpg
 
I would guess Low German had a strong influence on it nevetheless.

Yes. Berlinerisch is some kind of a "middle thing" between Low German and Central German.
(As Franconian (Mainfränkisch) is and Prague German was a "middle thing" between Central- and Upper German)
 
Which German dialect is closest to Standard German?
I don´t think there is really one, maybe Saxon? Standard German has bits from everywhere, the pronunciation comes from Hannover, other parts from other regions etc.
 
I don´t think there is really one, maybe Saxon? Standard German has bits from everywhere, the pronunciation comes from Hannover, other parts from other regions etc.

I assume you mean the modern state Saxon, not Old Saxon, as this region belongs to the Low German/Low Saxon area. The reason I asked which dialect is closest to standard German is that the map of the dialects is based on certain traits, and I would assume that some regions have more of those traits in common with Standard German than others. As far as I understand, Martin Luther´s translation of the Bible was important for the development of Standard German, and I believe his translation was based on the dialect spoken in the electorate of Saxony.
 
Which German dialect is closest to Standard German?
Do you mean...
... where in Germany do people today speak something that sounds like Standard German?
or
... which German dialects of today are closest to Standard German?
or
... which historical German dialects were closest to Standard German as it formed?

To the first question, the answer is: most of Northern Germany except for the Frisian coasts. In large parts of Northrhine-Westphalia, Lower Saxony, Northern Hesse, Saxony-Anhalt, Brandenburg, Bremen, Hamburg and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, there is not much dialect spoken anymore.

To the second question, the answer is Middle German dialects - a continuum from Saxony over Thuringia to Hesse.

To the third question, it depends on which period of standardisation you`re looking at.
In many ways, Standard German writing corresponds to the phonetic structure of High German, i.e. what was spoken in the Southern parts of Germany, in Austria etc.; considerably more so than it does to Low German. We`re talking about differences which came about during the Middle Ages. High German influence - the second Germanic consonant shift - seeped North into regions where no High German dialects had been spoken and were some of the changes were incorporated, thus bringing forth Middle German. Similar developments happened when Germans settled in Eastern Europe, creating a variety of syncretic new dialects all sharing a lot of similarities with what is labelled "Middle German" or "Central German".
With Luther`s translation, which was based on_this_Central German (i.e. after the second consonant shift), this Central German gained enormous influence.
If we`re talking about the centuries in which compulsory schooling under the paradigm of standardisation occurred - mostly the 19th and the first half of the 20th century -, we`re already talking about an age when many Central German dialects had lost their vitality and assimilated, too; so much of Central Germany was speaking a slightly regionally coloured Standard already.
 
So basically, I suppose we could help more if we knew which time you`re interested at and what PoD or butterflies you have in mind.
 
Do you mean...
... where in Germany do people today speak something that sounds like Standard German?
or
... which German dialects of today are closest to Standard German?
or
... which historical German dialects were closest to Standard German as it formed?

To the first question, the answer is: most of Northern Germany except for the Frisian coasts. In large parts of Northrhine-Westphalia, Lower Saxony, Northern Hesse, Saxony-Anhalt, Brandenburg, Bremen, Hamburg and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, there is not much dialect spoken anymore.

To the second question, the answer is Middle German dialects - a continuum from Saxony over Thuringia to Hesse.

To the third question, it depends on which period of standardisation you`re looking at.
In many ways, Standard German writing corresponds to the phonetic structure of High German, i.e. what was spoken in the Southern parts of Germany, in Austria etc.; considerably more so than it does to Low German. We`re talking about differences which came about during the Middle Ages. High German influence - the second Germanic consonant shift - seeped North into regions where no High German dialects had been spoken and were some of the changes were incorporated, thus bringing forth Middle German. Similar developments happened when Germans settled in Eastern Europe, creating a variety of syncretic new dialects all sharing a lot of similarities with what is labelled "Middle German" or "Central German".
With Luther`s translation, which was based on_this_Central German (i.e. after the second consonant shift), this Central German gained enormous influence.
If we`re talking about the centuries in which compulsory schooling under the paradigm of standardisation occurred - mostly the 19th and the first half of the 20th century -, we`re already talking about an age when many Central German dialects had lost their vitality and assimilated, too; so much of Central Germany was speaking a slightly regionally coloured Standard already.

I was thinking mostly about how the dialects were spoken before the standardisation process started having an influence on the High German dialects. What are the main difference between Central German and Upper German dialects? I am a bit uncertain from what you write which of those had the greatest influence on Standard German. You mention both Central German and Southern Germany, but in the southern parts of Germany, including Austria and Switzerland, Upper German dialects are spoken.
 
I was thinking mostly about how the dialects were spoken before the standardisation process started having an influence on the High German dialects. What are the main difference between Central German and Upper German dialects? I am a bit uncertain from what you write which of those had the greatest influence on Standard German. You mention both Central German and Southern Germany, but in the southern parts of Germany, including Austria and Switzerland, Upper German dialects are spoken.
Modern German, to oversimply, was created by Martin Luther with his translation of the Bible. As I understand it, he wrote it in a slightly extended version of the Saxon dialect of the time.

Obviously, the language has evolved some since then, but that's the basis.

---
Similarly, Italian was created by Dante and Petrarch - the Florentine dialect of their day BECAME modern Italian.
 
I was thinking mostly about how the dialects were spoken before the standardisation process started having an influence on the High German dialects. What are the main difference between Central German and Upper German dialects? I am a bit uncertain from what you write which of those had the greatest influence on Standard German. You mention both Central German and Southern Germany, but in the southern parts of Germany, including Austria and Switzerland, Upper German dialects are spoken.
It's not as easy as Dathi put it. Standardisation did not Fall from Heaven with Luther. Early influential tendencies, e.g. in poetry from the Middle Ages came from Upper German varieties. Luther's Bible was spoken in his personal variation of Central German Saxon/Thuringian.
 
Modern German, to oversimply, was created by Martin Luther with his translation of the Bible. As I understand it, he wrote it in a slightly extended version of the Saxon dialect of the time.

Obviously, the language has evolved some since then, but that's the basis.

Yes, through from I have heard it was also highly influenced by the Vienna dialect, as the Habsburg was one of the main court using German in the 18th century, while many lesser German courts preferred using French. A interesting double POD which could have changed German linguistic history was if Austrian Succession War had ended with a partition of the Habsburg's domains, and Frederick the Great had adopted German as his court language. There would be a good chance that the Berlin dialect would have turned into modern German.
 
It's not as easy as Dathi put it. Standardisation did not Fall from Heaven with Luther. Early influential tendencies, e.g. in poetry from the Middle Ages came from Upper German varieties. Luther's Bible was spoken in his personal variation of Central German Saxon/Thuringian.
Oh, true enough. Had Luther's native speech been Kölnische, say, he'd not have translated the bible into it. Similiarly to how John Knox used the standard (southern) English Geneva bible for his Scots Presbyterians.
Thus 'Modern German' if any single such language developed, WAS going be based on something somewhat similar. BUT, given that, the specific variant that led to modern German was the language of Luther's bible.

I did say 'to oversimplify'.
 
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