Benedict Arnold and George Washington

masteroftheveiledthreat · Jun 5, 2013

Suppose the Continental Congress had as high of an opinion as George Washington did until Arnold turned traitor, would Arnold have turned traitor?
And how much would Arnold's loyalty to the end and beyond have been worth?

Armored Diplomacy · Jun 7, 2013

Yes, Arnold would have not been a traitor, and would probably have gone down in history as a patriot. His patriotism had been gradually eroded by him being constantly ignored despite his abilities, which caused him to betray the US.

Emperor Constantine · Jun 7, 2013

Could we end up seeing a President Arnold later down the road?

Andrew Hudson · Jun 7, 2013

Emperor Constantine said:
Could we end up seeing a President Arnold later down the road?

Had no not changed sides we could however it wasn't congress's fault that Arnold changed sides but Arnolds. He did not change sides because he had become a convinced loyalist but for personal gain or pique at not being promoted which doesn't say a lot about the strength of his patriotism

Had Washington been given a regular commission in the British Army after the French Indian wars would be have been a loyalist? I don't think Washington would have taken an oath of allegience to the crown lightly

masteroftheveiledthreat · Jun 9, 2013

Andrew Hudson said:
Had no not changed sides we could however it wasn't congress's fault that Arnold changed sides but Arnolds. He did not change sides because he had become a convinced loyalist but for personal gain or pique at not being promoted which doesn't say a lot about the strength of his patriotism

So?

Had Washington been given a regular commission in the British Army after the French Indian wars would be have been a loyalist? I don't think Washington would have taken an oath of allegience to the crown lightly

But what if Arnold had been promoted? He may have been the best general in the war on either side. Had he been given enough of what he wanted during the war, the war may have been shorter, less bloody, and less expensive. Some times you just have to give people what they want, or else. Here's hoping we can know when that is and when it is not.

masteroftheveiledthreat · Jun 9, 2013

Armored Diplomacy said:
Yes, Arnold would have not been a traitor, and would probably have gone down in history as a patriot. His patriotism had been gradually eroded by him being constantly ignored despite his abilities, which caused him to betray the US.

More than that, he may have been at least the best tactical general on either side in the war. I've heard that Washington lost most of his battles.

deathscompanion1 · Jun 9, 2013

masteroftheveiledthreat said:
More than that, he may have been at least the best tactical general on either side in the war. I've heard that Washington lost most of his battles.

Well it would have been surprising if he won them given he was fighting one of the best armies in the world with a poorly equipped inexperienced force.

eliphas8 · Jun 9, 2013

deathscompanion1 said:
Well it would have been surprising if he won them given he was fighting one of the best armies in the world with a poorly equipped inexperienced force.

Except a lot of his losses wheren't due to his troops breaking too quickly or anything like that, they where due to Washingtons personal tactical blunders like allowing himself to get surrounded from several sides (and the same tricks kept working on him).

deathscompanion1 · Jun 9, 2013

eliphas8 said:
Except a lot of his losses wheren't due to his troops breaking too quickly or anything like that, they where due to Washingtons personal tactical blunders like allowing himself to get surrounded from several sides (and the same tricks kept working on him).

I never said he was brilliant, I just said it would be unfair to expect him to win many battles anyway.

eliphas8 · Jun 9, 2013

deathscompanion1 said:
I never said he was brilliant, I just said it would be unfair to expect him to win many battles anyway.

It's unfair to expect him to win everything, but it's entirely fair to attack him for walking into the same traps over and over again without learning from his mistakes.

masteroftheveiledthreat · Jun 10, 2013

deathscompanion1 said:
I never said he was brilliant, I just said it would be unfair to expect him to win many battles anyway.

I would have liked to have seen Arnold in charge of the defense of the NYC area. Especially with the time Washington had between his getting there and the British doing so.

Ameise · Jun 10, 2013

Washington was the Eisenhower of his day -- not a great military general, but he was a good leader and a good representative to Congress.

masteroftheveiledthreat · Jun 11, 2013

Ameise said:
Washington was the Eisenhower of his day -- not a great military general, but he was a good leader and a good representative to Congress.

Did I say otherwise? Certainly a better people person than Arnold. Like I said before, though, I would like to see how Arnold would have done in charge of defending the NYC area in 1776.

Monte-Cristo · Jun 11, 2013

Alternate -tongue in cheek- POD: with Washington executed by Louis Coulon de Villiers for war crimes (the massacre of French POW including their officer, Joseph Coulon de Villiers de Jumonville, Louis' brother), would Arnold have ended as the first President?

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(Dives to evade an outraged artillery barrage

)

masteroftheveiledthreat · Jun 12, 2013

Monte-Cristo said:
Alternate -tongue in cheek- POD: with Washington executed by Louis Coulon de Villiers for war crimes (the massacre of French POW including their officer, Joseph Coulon de Villiers de Jumonville, Louis' brother), would Arnold have ended as the first President?

---
(Dives to evade an outraged artillery barrage)

No Washington, the USA either loses the WOAI or it never happens.

Dirk_Pitt · Jun 13, 2013

masteroftheveiledthreat said:
I would have liked to have seen Arnold in charge of the defense of the NYC area. Especially with the time Washington had between his getting there and the British doing so.

What kind of strategy would you have used in NYC? Would Arnold have thought of it?

highwayhoss · Jun 13, 2013

The main reason Arnold became a traitor was that he needed money to support the lavish lifestyle he had in Philadelphia with his Tory wife Peggy Shippen. If you want to keep Arnold from becoming a traitor, you need to make sure of the following:

Make sure he gets the credit he deserves for winning the Saratoga Campaign.
Keep him far away from Philadelphia and Peggy Shippen.
Help him pay his debts.

Do these things and Arnold will more than likely stay loyal.

masteroftheveiledthreat · Jun 14, 2013

Dirk_Pitt said:
What kind of strategy would you have used in NYC? Would Arnold have thought of it?

You have to assume I knew OTL to ask me that. At the Battle of Long Island Heights I would have my rear much better protected. I think Arnold would have thought its a great idea. Victory not guarenteed, its a very difficult situation considering British Naval Supremacy but I think with a little study, and having Washington never doubting me I could do better.
If I had a few days with the best books now in existence I'm sure I could do better. Put me there with little knowledge of OTL and I can do nothing, but I imagine it would be very different with Arnold.