Beneath the Crimson Banner: A Timeline

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I think the problem wasn't necessarily the speed at which things had been advanced but rather the quality of the advancements. In 'revolution betrayed' Trotsky is constantly hammering home the reality of industrial advancement which on paper could be as 'high' as British or French industry in quantity but ultimately the shit quality reduced the effectiveness, something that'd be different with German expertise. Also you could see collectivisation being advanced sooner but at the same time being less drastic since the Left Opposition were criticising the state of agriculture as early as 1923 thanks to the NEP. The platform of the Left Opposition is key here.

Although I agree that he's not going to purge anyone, I do think that it's likely he'd take advantage of less democratic setups to position himself and his allies in strong positions before opening things up. There were other members of the party that advocated similar things, Kamenev wanted to bring back opposition newspapers etc, but they were all purged by Stalin so it'll be interesting to see where you take it.

 

[History_Pintobean]

I think the problem wasn't necessarily the speed at which things had been advanced but rather the quality of the advancements. In 'revolution betrayed' Trotsky is constantly hammering home the reality of industrial advancement which on paper could be as 'high' as British or French industry in quantity but ultimately the shit quality reduced the effectiveness, something that'd be different with German expertise. Also you could see collectivisation being advanced sooner but at the same time being less drastic since the Left Opposition were criticising the state of agriculture as early as 1923 thanks to the NEP. The platform of the Left Opposition is key here.

Although I agree that he's not going to purge anyone, I do think that it's likely he'd take advantage of less democratic setups to position himself and his allies in strong positions before opening things up. There were other members of the party that advocated similar things, Kamenev wanted to bring back opposition newspapers etc, but they were all purged by Stalin so it'll be interesting to see where you take it.

IMHO, the rapid industrialization, when in tempo with the equally rapid push to collective agriculture under Stalin put too much strain on both urban workers and the peasantry.

Even with a slower pace of collectivization, deaths will still result as only a few poor and middle peasants, accompanied by urban workers, party cadre, and the OGPU will in all likelihood still face immense opposition from many poor, middle, and rich peasants alike.

I might be wrong on this, but inevitably there will be violence and with it numerous deaths, although possibly on a much lesser scale under Trotsky.

German technical help would definitely aid Soviet Russia's industrial development, of course, once the German Civil War ends and the United Socialist Republic of Germany's (which is independent from the Soviet Union, esp. due to immense differences on how to build a revolutionary state and ultimately socialism according to distinct German conditions) economy recovers.

Finally, I would agree that Trotsky would still use the OGPU to place key Left Opposition party heads in positions of power.

Another, more hostile biographer of Trotsky named Robert Service makes the point that the chief organ of state terror - the OGPU, would nonetheless be at Trotsky's disposal assuming that he rose to power.

I don't know much about Kamenev wanting to bring back opposition newspapers. Do you mean other banned parties' opposition newspapers or just Bolshevik opposition newspapers?

Also, how likely do you think it would be that either A) upon consolidating his power or B) after WWII Trotsky would eventually restore the other formerly banned parties and thereby institute some sort of multiparty rule (at least at the local level, through the soviets, which happened under Gorbachev just prior to the USSR's collapse)? I'd imagine that the Communist Party of the Soviet Union would nonetheless retain its commanding positions over the state and economy, as in real life Gorbachev's loosening up of said positions weakened the C.P.S.U and ultimately IMHO and according to the historian Stephen F. Cohen this bold move would lead to the 1991 putsch and the dissolution of the USSR shortly thereafter. Thoughts?

 

[History_Pintobean]

I'm slammed from school work right now but have taken a bunch of good notes on pre-WWI Hungary and am currently doing some more note taking covering Hungary from the outbreak of WWI in 1914 to the the collapse of Austria-Hungary and the formation of an independent Hungary in 1918.

I'll be looking closely at pre-WWI Hungary's varied and highly stratified class composition, WWI induced tensions (economic, ethnic, jingoistic, etc.), and the collapse of Austria-Hungary and the formation first of a Hungarian bourgeois republic to be followed by an analysis of a surviving Hungarian Soviet Republic.

 

[History_Pintobean]

Will try to get an update in today, but no promises.

It will cover Hungary, both prewar and post-WWI with a special emphasis on Hungarian politics up to and including the formation of the Hungarian Soviet Republic.

Don't know if Soviet Hungary will get to keep Slovakia as a Soviet Socialist Republic or SSR, though.

Maybe a peace treaty favorable to Soviet Hungary (a given, as they win in this version of history) allows them to hold on to Slovakia in exchange for concessions to Romania - chiefly by recognizing Romanian sovereignty over the former Hungarian controlled parts of prewar eastern Romanian lands.

 

[History_Pintobean]

Sorry guys, I was meaning to finish up the note taking and finally getting around to the writing but school and personal issues relating to my mental well being cropped up.

Fall Break is just around the corner and, with my exam out of the way this upcoming Wednesday, I'll be sure to do a series of updates not just on Hungary but the Middle- and Far-East, the United States, and the crushing of the Krondstadt Rebellion.

Wish me luck!

 

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Sorry guys, I was meaning to finish up the note taking and finally getting around to the writing but school and personal issues relating to my mental well being cropped up.

Fall Break is just around the corner and, with my exam out of the way this upcoming Wednesday, I'll be sure to do a series of updates not just on Hungary but the Middle- and Far-East, the United States, and the crushing of the Krondstadt Rebellion.

Wish me luck!

No worries man, I know the feeling. We write alternate history and things for our own enjoyment so don't feel any pressure.

 

[History_Pintobean]

No worries man, I know the feeling. We write alternate history and things for our own enjoyment so don't feel any pressure.

EDIT: Why has my alternate history already reached 30,000+ views already? Is it just that awesome, or is it my constant "bumping?"

I'm currently enjoying Fall break away from college!

I almost got the Hungary note-taking done.

I have several books covering Soviet policy towards the Middle- and Far-East, and will cover the early Chinese labor and communist movement(s) heavily.

Next comes the U.S. at the height of the First Red Scare (John Reed will play a pivotal role upon returning home after his recent visit to Soviet Russia - needless to say, he doesn't die young, so he'll continue his journalism career into the 30s and 40s).

Finally, to conclude the years 1920-21, the Kronstadt Rebellion of 1921 will be crushed by the hero of the Polish-Soviet War Mikhail Tukhachevsky - sometimes, even with the butterfly effect, sometimes history - war- never changes.

 

[BootOnFace]

I'd love to see a map of Europe after Hungary and Germany's revolutions! And I think it's a shame that your DH mod died. After HoI4 comes out I'd love to collaborate on a mod for that, though if you'd be interested. Your timeline would also be refined enough to put a good 1933-36 scenario in place.

 

[History_Pintobean]

I'd love to see a map of Europe after Hungary and Germany's revolutions! And I think it's a shame that your DH mod died. After HoI4 comes out I'd love to collaborate on a mod for that, though if you'd be interested. Your timeline would also be refined enough to put a good 1933-36 scenario in place.

Maybe a user who enjoys this alternate history and who is good at map-making could make one for me?

A detailed close-up map detailing the provinces and cities, towns, etc. as well as the borders of the United Socialist Republic of Germany (post-civil war) and the Hungarian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic (the official name of "Soviet Hungary" in the constitution for the short-lived state FYI) would help me a lot both for visualizing purposes when writing and also for modding.

It'd be great if someone could do that for me.

The DH mod died not out of a lack for trying (believe me, I've worked by butt off on this alternate history while also juggling with school work, my autism, and "brain bleeding" obtained when I was born premature which has currently impaired my ability to drive in RL)

It died specifically because it kept crashing on Windows 8.1, and when in windowed mode the part of the screen allowing for changing the map (the little buttons allowing you to switch between national borders, weather, terrain, claimed and core provinces, etc.) was cut-off so its virtually unplayable.

That and HOI3 is a much better game - its actually easier one you figure out the HQ system to organize your forces into army groups, armies, divisions, and corps, and is also more modder friendly IMHO.

I'd love to do a collab with you for HOI4! Just shoot me a PM.

I've started making the mod for HOI3. Is it better to complete the mod for HOI3-an older game-or just wait for HOI4? Thoughts?

Yes, I think that the timeline is developed enough (at least in my head) to create a believable, realistic (realism is what I'm aiming for after all), and ultimately good mod for HOI.

I think it'd be best to start in 1934 IMHO, when the fascists seize power in France and effectively abolish the Third Republic.

Or possibly 1935, which in real life saw the stoking up of fears of a a fascist invasion or at the very least fascist subversion (one of the main reasons for the so-called "Great Purge" under Stalin). These fears effectively prompted the Comintern to pursue the Popular Front strategy (a good source on the subject of just how the Comintern reacted to the threat of fascism between 1934 and 1935 is E.H. Carr's Twilight of the Comintern, 1930-1935).

This would set the mod a year away from the traditional start-date 1936, when the infamous Anti-Comintern Pact would be formed IOTL (Fascist Italy, Fascist France, a fascistic but still somewhat democratic Britain under Winston Churchill, [a nod to TL-191's Britain in Settling Accounts] and Imperial Japan will create the Anti-Comintern Pact in this timeline).

This would work well to showcase the fear prevalent among the socialist camp nations in this timeline towards a much larger fascist threat (and would give the player plenty of decisions on how best to respond to said fears a la events dealing with the Comintern), and would also setup WWII while giving one extra time to prepare for the war regardless of what nation you decide to play as.

Thoughts?https://www.alternatehistory.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[History_Pintobean]

Thanksgiving break is literally a few days away so I will come up with at least three updates:

Looking East - This section will cover Soviet foreign policy towards the Middle- and Far-East and the beginnings of the labor movement in China and the formation and early development of the Chinese Communist Party. (Mao, by June 22 1941 denoting the French lighting war through "Red Germany", will serve as People's Commissar for War in the Chinese Soviet Federated Socialist Republic during its fight with Imperial Japan)

Keep the Left-Wing Strong: - The section title is provisional, in the same way as the new regime established in "Red Poland" following the fall of Warsaw to the Red Army in this timeline is provisional.

I'm basically throwing ideas around here. Have like four books on the U.S. 20th-century Socialist and Communist movements respectively.

Either A) The left-wing of the Socialist Party doesn't split or B) There's a stronger Communist Party owing to the influence of John Reed who has recently arrived safely back from Soviet Russia. (He doesn't die, and thus is slated to play a major role in the revolutionary left movement in the United States regardless of which idea is chosen)

Kronstadt - Also a provisional title.The hero of the Polish-Soviet War Mikhail Tukhachvesky crushes the Kronstadt Rebellion of 1921.

I will also cover the beginnings of the New Economic Policy (or NEP) as a prelude to Lenin's death and the so-called "interregnum" that consequently followed with his untimely demise.

---

Stalin is dead btw, from a (real-life) bout of appendicitis that kills him in this alternate universe.

He lives long enough to have an impact on the nationalities question - Thus, the makeup of the Soviet Union is 100% the same even with the addition of Poland.

I'm trying to figure out how to make it subtle, possibly by not having him show up at Lenin's funeral - that and Lenin won't mention Stalin at all in his (in)famous theses.

Regardless, Stalin won't play a role in the ensuing power struggles that blighted the USSR throughout the early- to late-1920s.

 

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Thanksgiving break is literally a few days away so I will come up with at least three updates:

Looking East - This section will cover Soviet foreign policy towards the Middle- and Far-East and the beginnings of the labor movement in China and the formation and early development of the Chinese Communist Party. (Mao, by June 22 1941 denoting the French lighting war through "Red Germany", will serve as People's Commissar for War in the Chinese Soviet Federated Socialist Republic during its fight with Imperial Japan)

I always found the early socialist movement in China and the 'east' particularly interesting. It always seemed from my (admittedly Trotskyist biased) understanding that the Stalinist turn of the Comintern basically fucked with a lot of the workers' movements throughout the world with the Chinese workers in particular being fucked over by callous Realpolitik.

Keep the Left-Wing Strong: - The section title is provisional, in the same way as the new regime established in "Red Poland" following the fall of Warsaw to the Red Army in this timeline is provisional.

I'm basically throwing ideas around here. Have like four books on the U.S. 20th-century Socialist and Communist movements respectively.

Either A) The left-wing of the Socialist Party doesn't split or B) There's a stronger Communist Party owing to the influence of John Reed who has recently arrived safely back from Soviet Russia. (He doesn't die, and thus is slated to play a major role in the revolutionary left movement in the United States regardless of which idea is chosen)

In general I feel that the influence of John Reed is often overblown. He wrote a fascinating book and had a lot of unique experiences but he was no different, in some ways, to the likes of Bertrand Russel. He was a writer who was involved in politics as opposed to a political organiser who wrote some great stuff. Reed surviving would be a positive thing for the US workers movement, no doubt, but there are other important figures in US history that I would give primacy.

Kronstadt - Also a provisional title.The hero of the Polish-Soviet War Mikhail Tukhachvesky crushes the Kronstadt Rebellion of 1921.

I will also cover the beginnings of the New Economic Policy (or NEP) as a prelude to Lenin's death and the so-called "interregnum" that consequently followed with his untimely demise.

In regards to both the Kronstadt Rebellion and the NEP I would recommend Victor Serge. I feel that he gives an unashamedly Left-stance towards the events but recognises the flaws and the unfortunate developments of the events.

Generally I think the Left-Opposition, if they weren't an 'opposition' but rather managed to gain some facet of power, would have pulled away from the NEP in much the same way as they describe in the 'Platform of the Left Opposition' rather than, as Stalin did, ignore the growing contradictions and problems of the NEP for political reasons until enforcing changes in one fell swoop.

Stalin is dead btw, from a (real-life) bout of appendicitis that kills him in this alternate universe.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

He lives long enough to have an impact on the nationalities question - Thus, the makeup of the Soviet Union is 100% the same even with the addition of Poland.

I'm trying to figure out how to make it subtle, possibly by not having him show up at Lenin's funeral - that and Lenin won't mention Stalin at all in his (in)famous theses.

Regardless, Stalin won't play a role in the ensuing power struggles that blighted the USSR throughout the early- to late-1920s.

I don't think you can avoid power struggles and internal movements. The bolsheviks were definitely a diverse group with a diverse group of supporters. What I feel can be avoided is the unnecessary purges and the unhealthy suppression of internal debate. There were many amongst the bolsheviks who advocated for a return to democratic measures and free speech such as Zinoviev and Kamenev who wanted to bring back newspapers external to the party. It all depends on the situation and conditions, of course.

 

[History_Pintobean]

Expect huge updates over winter break.

Fall break was short and I still had quite a bit of school work to get done.

Probably going to switch gears and focus on, say, French politics towards Germany or U.S. politics (including presidential elections) at the height of the First Red Scare.

Sick of writing exclusively about the communist movement, especially in relation to the Bolsheviks as I know a lot about them.

 

[History_Pintobean]

University library is finally open.

Will start checking out books for research purposes.

 

[omnimercurial]

I read a really impressive bit of AH Speculation with a great divergence premise regarding Turkey a While back that really impressed me, do you have any plans for Turkey?

The Stalin Nationalities Issue going OTL suggests no but I thought I would ask anyway.

I remember bits and pieces of the TL but the clearest memory was of the Local Communist Party blabbing about only working with a Nationalist/Bandit Type Guy til they didn't need him... Which they really should have kept quiet about as he purged THEM before they barely had a twinkle in their eye about purging him.

Turkey stood a good chance of going Red if that infighting had not happened.

 

[dwalters]

Interesting thread but adavancing too rapidly.

first, I'm glad you are using original sources and great history books. PLEASE finish reading the Broue book on the German Revolution. Effectively the only book of such detail on the German revolutions (1918-23). A different and brighter course for Paul Levi will, I think, add to your tme line.

Secondly, no less important, IS China. Don't forget, it's not only about what the comintern initiates, its how the Comintern *responds*. The communists don't control the course of the class struggle, they can only provide leadership. Thus, read: The Bolsheviks and the Chinese revolution, 1919-1927 by Alexander Pantsov. a MUST read!...as well Trotsky's overall critique of the Comintern in "The Third International After Lenin".

Lastly...AUSTRIA!!!! We do we always, without fail, forget Austria??? It had a party organization MORE influential than the SDP in Germany. Real Workers in Arms by Ilona Duczynska. He deails the powerful SPO (Socialist Party) control over the Austrian army after WWI.

 

[History_Pintobean]

I read a really impressive bit of AH Speculation with a great divergence premise regarding Turkey a While back that really impressed me, do you have any plans for Turkey?

The Stalin Nationalities Issue going OTL suggests no but I thought I would ask anyway.

I remember bits and pieces of the TL but the clearest memory was of the Local Communist Party blabbing about only working with a Nationalist/Bandit Type Guy til they didn't need him... Which they really should have kept quiet about as he purged THEM before they barely had a twinkle in their eye about purging him.

Turkey stood a good chance of going Red if that infighting had not happened.

Yeah, Stalin lives long enough for his line on the nationalities question to take hold.

I don't think Turkey will go Red; however, the nationalistic regime will no doubt be supported like in real life by the Soviet government.

Just some thoughts - I've read a bunch of E.H. Carr, who covers Soviet foreign policy in depth towards the Middle- and Far-East.

Plus, I have a good friend in RL who may or may not approved of a Red Turkey.

Interesting thread but adavancing too rapidly.

Just out of curiosity, how it advancing too rapidly?

PLEASE finish reading the Broue book on the German Revolution.

If I have time, I'll give it a shot.

Right now I've been reading Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution, which is equal in length.

Secondly, no less important, IS China.

Will definitely cover China.

Thus, read: The Bolsheviks and the Chinese revolution, 1919-1927 by Alexander Pantsov.

Will do.

Lastly...AUSTRIA!!!! We do we always, without fail, forget Austria??? It had a party organization MORE influential than the SDP in Germany. Real Workers in Arms by Ilona Duczynska. He deails the powerful SPO (Socialist Party) control over the Austrian army after WWI.

Don't know much about Austria; I'm guessing that it usually gets overlooked due to a lack of source material.

 

[History_Pintobean]

Doing Kronstadt Uprising for upcoming post. (find myself not being able to sit down and do note taking for Hungary)

Got most notes done at least as far as secondary sources go (a lot of the books are either in Russian or German unfortunately, so I've been relying almost exclusively on Kronstadt 1921 by Paul Avrich).

Primary sources, such as pieces by Lenin, Trotsky, etc. are plentiful (Paul Avrich lists a handful of English primary source documents).

 

[King of the Uzbeks]

Interesting Premise.

 

[History_Pintobean]

Going through a personal crisis right now.

Taking medical leave from my university to get my bearings together.

I'll try to get the Kronstadt update done but no promises.

 

[omnimercurial]

Going through a personal crisis right now.

Taking medical leave from my university to get my bearings together.

I'll try to get the Kronstadt update done but no promises.

I hope things go well for you in these circumstances.
As much as I love your writing please take your time and don't feel under pressure.
Your Health and wellbeing come first.