Belgium, Oh Belgium - Who Shall Claim Thee, Belgium?

Who Should Be the King?

  • Someone else I foolishly forgot to put (post who and why below!)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Prosper Louis, The Duke of Arenberg (Belgian noble)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Alfred, The Duke of Croy (Belgian noble)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Younger son of Willem III of the Netherlands

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    158
  • Poll closed .
I'm curious about the Dutch reconquest idea. What is France doing when that happens? Does France get bribed with something to stay out of the conflict, or does this flame up into a general European war and the French are on the losing side?

All depend of how it managed.

If the revolution is crushed and William I put in place persecution against french and catholicism, a war would wappen.

If William II manage to be elected king of Belgium and accept to give a lot of guarantee to the Belgium after that both country are united a sort of compromise could happen maybe a sort of informal alliance and dynastic link with the Bourbons.

but it would be difficile to let him be elected king of Belgium.
 
All depend of how it managed.

If the revolution is crushed and William I put in place persecution against french and catholicism, a war would wappen.

If William II manage to be elected king of Belgium and accept to give a lot of guarantee to the Belgium after that both country are united a sort of compromise could happen maybe a sort of informal alliance and dynastic link with the Bourbons.

but it would be difficile to let him be elected king of Belgium.

I know Willem II was popular in Belgium before the revolution, so maybe he gets elected on the condition of passing Belgium onto a second son or grandson to keep it seperate? If I remember correctly, that was the deal when Friedrich Karl, the Landgrave of Hesse, was elected the King of Finland: his eldest son got Hesse and his second son got Finland to keep them seperate. The son / grandson who got Belgium could marry a French princess or Austrian archduchess to keep the peace, and marry their children into the other great powers.
 
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Hadn't thought about that - anyone who is pro-reconquest have any ideas?

Perhaps some adaption of the OTL 1830 Talleyrand Plan: The Dutch would offer the Prussians all Belgian territory east of the Maas, plus the Dutch province of Limburg in exchange for Prussia becoming protecting power for the Netherlands in case of a French intervention against them. Obviously, the French would get nothing out of such a scenario.

However, this would realistically only work before the 1839 Treaty of London is concluded, in which the Great Powers guaranteed the independence and neutrality of Belgium.
 
I agree! I think people are voting for him because he's a nice guy who got a rotten lot in life and deserves a chance. He'd be a good ruler, and maybe the Great Powers could be brought around to it. They could set up a safety net plan where bad behavior (a la trying to invade every other country in Europe) gets his crown revoked or something like that. It'd be hard to swing but I think there is a real shot for François I of Belgium (he'd have to drop Napoléon quick, fast, and in a hurry)
I still don't see the powers that be in Europe allowing it. France still has Bonaparte sympathizers to appease and keep low key. In 1830 don't forget, Conservative absolutist Charles X is kicked out and replaced by his more liberal cousin Louis-Philippe I causing Tsar Nicholas I to make the comment, "Whenever France sneezes everyone else catches a cold." None of the victors of the Napoleonic Wars,(Austria, Russia, Prussia and Great Britain) and France included will allow or have any part of the Duke of Reichstadt sitting on a throne in Europe.
 
Perhaps some adaption of the OTL 1830 Talleyrand Plan: The Dutch would offer the Prussians all Belgian territory east of the Maas, plus the Dutch province of Limburg in exchange for Prussia becoming protecting power for the Netherlands in case of a French intervention against them. Obviously, the French would get nothing out of such a scenario.

However, this would realistically only work before the 1839 Treaty of London is concluded, in which the Great Powers guaranteed the independence and neutrality of Belgium.
Mostly Catholic Belgium may prefer French intervention.
 
He's the pretender to one of the Crusader lineages that ruled there.

The claim to the kingdom of Jerusalem is not vested in The Prince of Ligne, though, but in a member of a younger branch (*), which also only inherited this claim in the early 20th century.

(* The descendance of Henri de Ligne (1881-1967) and Charlotte de La Trémouille (1892-1971), heiress to the Jerusalem claim, for those interested.)
 
He's the pretender to one of the Crusader lineages that ruled there.

The claim to the kingdom of Jerusalem is not vested in The Prince of Ligne, though, but in a member of a younger branch (*), which also only inherited this claim in the early 20th century.

(* The descendance of Henri de Ligne (1881-1967) and Charlotte de La Trémouille (1892-1971), heiress to the Jerusalem claim, for those interested.)

Considering that the Egyptians more or less has custody of Egypt in 1831, and it's 3,448 km away, if the Prince de Ligne becomes King of Belgium, I feel like he's gonna be willing to let the Jerusalem claim go lol
 
Considering that the Egyptians more or less has custody of Egypt in 1831, and it's 3,448 km away, if the Prince de Ligne becomes King of Belgium, I feel like he's gonna be willing to let the Jerusalem claim go lol
Sure. Until his heirs get the League of Nations mandate there...
 
Sure. Until his heirs get the League of Nations mandate there...

And then he does what that French guy did at Saladin's tomb:
Gouraud is said to have celebrated his victory by going to the tomb of Saladin, to have kicked it, and to have said: "Awake Saladin, we have returned. My presence here consecrates the victory of the Cross over the Crescent."
 
And then he does what that French guy did at Saladin's tomb:

As interesting as that would be to write (and the ensuing international drama that followed), it looks like most people are happier with Belgium remaining in the Netherlands.

To my pro-reconquest people: would Belgium remain in the Netherlands permanently, get passed to a younger son / grandson eventually to rule independently, or eventually succeed as a republic?
 
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Gian

Banned
As interesting as that would be to write (and the ensuing international drama that followed), it looks like most people are happier with Belgium remaining in the Netherlands.

To my pro-reconquest people: would Belgium remain in the Netherlands permanently, get passed to a younger son / grandson eventually to rule independently, or eventually succeed as a republic?

this (hopefully)
 
@The_Most_Happy: I just came across this on wikipedia, and I thought it might be interesting, if unlikely. It's a way of getting someone related to the Prussian, Dutch (or at least Nassau), Bavarian, Wettin and British royal families.

In 1790 Anne-César, Chevalier de la Luzerne, the French ambassador to Great Britain, reported that Therese's husband was being considered for the new throne of the Austrian Netherlands and that Therese's aunt Queen Charlotte would support this; these turned out to be unfounded rumors, as Charlotte and her husband George III believed Karl Alexander [of Thurn und Taxis] of insufficient rank for kingship

Now, obviously, 1790 is a long way from 1830, and you've probably decided what to do with Belgium already, but a house of Thurn und Taxis as an "actual" royal family could be fun. They'd probably be regarded as jumped-up postmen by the rest of Europe's royalty, but IIRC, the Thurn und Taxis do have historic ties to Belgium.
And I don't quite understand George III's snobbery about the TnT not being of sufficient rank. In comparison to the Grimaldis or the Liechtensteins, the TnTs more consistently married royal than either. The fact that even when mediatized, they still got the sister of the Austrian empress, an Austrian archduchess, a king of Portugal etc etc should demonstrate that. And insufficient, Karl Alexander's mother was a princess of Württemberg, his grandmother was a princess of Brandenburg-Bayreuth, his great-grandmother is a Lobkowicz, but the daughter of a princess of Baden. That's pretty decent for a non-royal family IMHO (especially if you compare the Grimaldis or Liechtensteins of the same era, who marry more like an aristocratic family rather than royalty).
 
@Kellan Sullivan: sister of the Empress or not, Duchess Helene in Bavaria was only a junior princess of Bavaria (she was close enough to the crown but only from her maternal side aka the wrong one) and the King of Bavaria refuted to give her the permission to marry Thurn and Taxis because he thinked who him was not high ranking enough for her (in the end he changed idea and give his consent but only after the intercession of the Emperor and Empress of Austria, who were acting under Helene request and felt they owed it to her)
[Remember who Helene and not Elisabeth was the one who Sophia and Ludovica had destined as bride of her first cousin the Emperor and as Helene had taken pretty badly the rejection in favour of her younger sister both FJ and Sisi feels guilty about her and the fact who she do not wished to marry anymore so their support to a love match who Helene wanted was practically inevitable]
 
@Kellan Sullivan: sister of the Empress or not, Duchess Helene in Bavaria was only a junior princess of Bavaria (she was close enough to the crown but only from her maternal side aka the wrong one) and the King of Bavaria refuted to give her the permission to marry Thurn and Taxis because he thinked who him was not high ranking enough for her (in the end he changed idea and give his consent but only after the intercession of the Emperor and Empress of Austria, who were acting under Helene request and felt they owed it to her)
[Remember who Helene and not Elisabeth was the one who Sophia and Ludovica had destined as bride of her first cousin the Emperor and as Helene had taken pretty badly the rejection in favour of her younger sister both FJ and Sisi feels guilty about her and the fact who she do not wished to marry anymore so their support to a love match who Helene wanted was practically inevitable]

Still doesn't adjust the "royal" heritage of the TnT clan before that.

And HAD the Palatinate still existed post-Napoléonic Wars, it would have gone to the "in Bavaria" branch (Max IV/I of Bavaria appointed his nephew Wilhelm (Sisi and Nene's grandpa) as governor, much the same as what Karl Theodor had treated it when he'd moved to Munich (wherein his nephew, Karl of Zweibrucken was de facto governor).
 
@The_Most_Happy: I just came across this on wikipedia, and I thought it might be interesting, if unlikely. It's a way of getting someone related to the Prussian, Dutch (or at least Nassau), Bavarian, Wettin and British royal families.



Now, obviously, 1790 is a long way from 1830, and you've probably decided what to do with Belgium already, but a house of Thurn und Taxis as an "actual" royal family could be fun. They'd probably be regarded as jumped-up postmen by the rest of Europe's royalty, but IIRC, the Thurn und Taxis do have historic ties to Belgium.
And I don't quite understand George III's snobbery about the TnT not being of sufficient rank. In comparison to the Grimaldis or the Liechtensteins, the TnTs more consistently married royal than either. The fact that even when mediatized, they still got the sister of the Austrian empress, an Austrian archduchess, a king of Portugal etc etc should demonstrate that. And insufficient, Karl Alexander's mother was a princess of Württemberg, his grandmother was a princess of Brandenburg-Bayreuth, his great-grandmother is a Lobkowicz, but the daughter of a princess of Baden. That's pretty decent for a non-royal family IMHO (especially if you compare the Grimaldis or Liechtensteins of the same era, who marry more like an aristocratic family rather than royalty).

Honest to god, most definitely have not decided what to do with Belgium yet!

I looked into the TNT family at the time and this is who I found:

Maximilian Karl, The Prince of Thurn von Taxis
(Born in 1802, his parents were Karl Alexander, Prince of Thurn and Taxis, and Duchess Therese of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, who just happened to be a niece of Queen Charlotte of Great Britain and a first cousin to George IV, making Max a second cousin to Charlotte. Therese was also an older sister of Queen Luise of Prussia and Queen Friederike of Hanover. "Therese's paternal aunt Queen Charlotte and her husband George III of the United Kingdom helped broker the marriage, in particular ensuring that Therese would be able to keep her Protestant faith". Karl Alexander -Max's father- was the Imperial Post master for the Austrian Empire (and first cousin to the Kings of Württemberg) and his mother, Duchess Auguste of Württemberg, was the daughter of the Imperial governor of Serbia. Max's eldest sister Maria Theresia was married to Prince Paul Anthony Esterházy of Galántha, the Austrian ambassador to the Congress of Vienna and the Ambassador to the United Kingdom from 1815 to 1841. So the guy is super connected. As for Max himself, "At the age of nine, Maximilian Karl became Under Lieutenant in Bayer's Fourth Bayerrischen Cheveaulegers-Regiment König. After four years of education at Bildungsinstitut Hofwyl, a Swiss educational institution, he joined the Bavarian army on 25 August 1822. After the death of his father in 1827, Maximilian Karl asked for his dismissal from the army".

Now, in 1790, his father was being tossed around as an option to rule the Austrian Netherlands, and George III and Charlotte supposedly stepped in and vetoed this, believing Karl Anselm not worthy to rule. But it's 1831 now and it's Charlotte and Leopold calling the shots. A grateful kinsman with cash to burn and a liberal education and fairly decent marriage prospects for either himself or his children. OTL he married Baroness Wilhelmine of Dörnberg in 1828; she was from a Protestant Hessian noble family and not considered of appropriate rank. They had five children overall -Karl Wilhelm (b./d. 1829), Therese Mathilde (b.1830), Maximilian Anton (b. 1831), Egon (b. 1832), and Theodor (b. 1834)- before her death in 1835. So other claimants could marry into their children and Max could make a properly royal remarriage after 1835.

*Or*
maybe someone stops slacking in 1828 (maybe Leopold starts thinking ahead and his brother-in-law Paul starts advocating) and we get Max a proper royal marriage, maybe even with one of the children or family members of the claimants. Leopold and Charlotte have a niece, Marie of Württemberg, who OTL married her uncle Ernest I of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha (father of Albert, The Prince Consort). She was a first cousin to the Emperors Aexander I and Nicholas I of Russia through her father and spent time in Russia in her youth. She's two years older than Max, but could work out nicely, for example, and get the Russians on his side. He'd have Britain via Charlotte and Leopold backing him in theory, and through Marie again - a half Coburg under the crown. Given the amount of sevice his family had done over the years for the Austrian empire, I feel like they would back him (especially if some land exchange went down, since he couldn't have the TNT lands and Belgium), which just leaves the French, who would probably be thrilled he wasn't a Bonaparte or member of another Great Power family. And he could always marry his children into the French, as he and Marie would marry before 1828 most likely and start having children earlier).

I really like this idea, and added him to the poll!
 
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How do you keep Wallonia permanently content with Dutch rule?

Maybe having a second son / grandson marry a French Catholic princess and become the Govenor of Wallonia, and then having it maybe turn into a more or less hereditary position: his Catholic inclined half-French son marries a Belgian noble or Catholic princess and becomes the next governor, followed by his son and so on. Maybe they convert to Catholicism a bit down the line. The mainline Dutch marry a princess off there every now and then to remind everyone who is in charge, but the Wallonia line of the House of Orange more or less becomes Wallonian over time.
 
Maybe having a second son / grandson marry a French Catholic princess and become the Govenor of Wallonia, and then having it maybe turn into a more or less hereditary position: his Catholic inclined half-French son marries a Belgian noble or Catholic princess and becomes the next governor, followed by his son and so on. Maybe they convert to Catholicism a bit down the line. The mainline Dutch marry a princess off there every now and then to remind everyone who is in charge, but the Wallonia line of the House of Orange more or less becomes Wallonian over time.

The monarch will become a figurehead in due time. But as the country becomes democratic, how will the Walloons tolerate a system in which they will be outvoted like 6 to 1 by the Dutch speakers?
 
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