Belgian airforce adopts the Fokker G1 as first

[Parma]

Fokker aircraft company developt on its own expenses the G1. A plane we now call a heavy fighter/reconancance/tactical light bomber. After specification of the French air forces. Even after a sensetional mock up presentaon at the Paris air saloon in 1936, the French prefered own French designs.
Fokker developted it further and made a prototype fly in 1936 with radial engines. Acording to some internet sites Fokker prefered iliquid cooled line engines as the Rolls Royce Crestel or even the Merlin ( not confirmed) but it was not possible to purchase this engines.
What if the Belgian Airforces were intersted this design as a replacement and extension for their Fairly fighter and reconacance-bomber fleet. This time with Belguim build Hispano engines or even with RR Merlins. The Belgian air force was more serious numbered than the Dutch with their 2 to 3 squadron orders. How would the Dutch gouverment and militairs reacted on large orders of this type of aircraft. Would the Dutch East Indies gouverment made large ordres for this ´multy purpose´ plane.

 

[Michel Van]

here details on aircraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_G.I

i think that Fokker company would pleased and that the Dutch gouverment and militairs
start to rethink there Strategy on Airforce
seeing that Belgium, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Turkey, Hungary and Switzerland wandet that Aircraft.

only problem is can the Fokker company produce so many aircraft until 1940 ?
Belgium can produce that Aircraft in License like Stampe in Antwerp.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stampe
or ACAZ, Zeebrugge Aeronautical Construction Company at Zeebrugge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ateliers_de_Construction_Aéronautique_de_Zeebruges

would be nasty suprise for Luftwaffe in 1940

 

[Just Leo]

The Battle of Britain wasn't won so much by Spitfires and Hurricanes as by the early warning network, including radar and the observer corps. This allowed fighters to be placed in an attack position. Geography was on the German side. They were usually attacking aircraft on the ground or not suitably deployed for advantageous attack. A better G.1 would still be just a target.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

The Battle of Britain wasn't won so much by Spitfires and Hurricanes as by the early warning network, including radar and the observer corps. This allowed fighters to be placed in an attack position. Geography was on the German side. They were usually attacking aircraft on the ground or not suitably deployed for advantageous attack. A better G.1 would still be just a target.

Very true, the Dutch G-I's afterall mostly did get destroyed on the ground.

But the G-I was designed as an 'air-cruiser' patrolling untill it was needed, thanks to it's longer range.
So compared with an interceptor like the D-XXI the G-I is somewhat likelier to be in the air when the Germans attack.

 

[Michel Van]

Very true, the Dutch G-I's afterall mostly did get destroyed on the ground.

But the G-I was designed as an 'air-cruiser' patrolling untill it was needed, thanks to it's longer range.
So compared with an interceptor like the D-XXI the G-I is somewhat likelier to be in the air when the Germans attack.

from that point of view, how about this?
Dutch and Belgium G-1 fighters escape to England and forms RAF Squadron
for longrange interceptor against Luftwaffe Bombers

 

[HMS Warspite]

Belgian G-1's would likely have been too few in numbers, if servicable altogether, since the type was just getting its first deliveries in the Netherlands, by the time of the May invasions of 1940. So there could hardly have been airplanes available of this type, let alone fight against the German Luftwaffe.

In the Netherlands, most G-1's did get lost on the ground, mainly due to the fact the Dutch lacked an early warning radar system, simmilar to the British. Most of the Dutch Airforce was altogether destroyed on its airfields. Those planes that did get airborne did do quite good considering the odds, they were up against. This was more likely due to the Germans, who did not give the slower transport planes and bombers the needed protection, than due to the tyactics used by the Dutch aviators.

Technically the G-1 could be roughly considered an equal in both concept and missionprofile to the slightly smaller and faster Messerschmitt Bf-110, which was its contemporary opponent. The pressence of a third crewman was mainly an asset, as it freed the radiocontroller/observer/navigator for other duties, than manning the rear armament.

Theoretically the aircraft would have been a great asset in the Dutch armed forces, especially in the East Indies, where its good range and firepower could have made life for the Japanese longranged, but fragile bombers very unpleassant. Since it was much faster and had a higher altitude than the single engined fighters of the same period in the Kon. Vliegafdeling, they could get to the bombers more quickly and more effectively, causing them likely to abbandon their mission, before they reached their targets. (assuming they were spotted, before hitting the target.)

 

[Markus]

Would the Dutch East Indies gouverment made large ordres for this ´multy purpose´ plane.

I´m sceptical. They did not order much before the invasion of the Netherlands -20 Hawks and 24 CW-21B- but the DEI would be the only place where this plane could have any value.

 

[Parma]

Belgian G-1's would likely have been too few in numbers, if servicable altogether, since the type was just getting its first deliveries in the Netherlands, by the time of the May invasions of 1940. So there could hardly have been airplanes available of this type, let alone fight against the German Luftwaffe.

In the Netherlands, most G-1's did get lost on the ground, mainly due to the fact the Dutch lacked an early warning radar system, simmilar to the British. Most of the Dutch Airforce was altogether destroyed on its airfields. Those planes that did get airborne did do quite good considering the odds, they were up against. This was more likely due to the Germans, who did not give the slower transport planes and bombers the needed protection, than due to the tyactics used by the Dutch aviators.

Technically the G-1 could be roughly considered an equal in both concept and missionprofile to the slightly smaller and faster Messerschmitt Bf-110, which was its contemporary opponent. The pressence of a third crewman was mainly an asset, as it freed the radiocontroller/observer/navigator for other duties, than manning the rear armament.

Theoretically the aircraft would have been a great asset in the Dutch armed forces, especially in the East Indies, where its good range and firepower could have made life for the Japanese longranged, but fragile bombers very unpleassant. Since it was much faster and had a higher altitude than the single engined fighters of the same period in the Kon. Vliegafdeling, they could get to the bombers more quickly and more effectively, causing them likely to abbandon their mission, before they reached their targets. (assuming they were spotted, before hitting the target.)

The WI is, the Begian Airforce adopt the development rather than left it to an private Fokker enterprise.
The aircraft would enter service slightly earlier and for the Belgians build in Belgium, of course. Their aim is to replace and expaned the reconance/light bomber role of the Fairly's and other types.
It would end up a bit faster with Belguim made Hispano's liquid cooled engines ( not so relaible it seems) and a more balanced armamnend ( example 2x 20mm guns and 2 x 7,62 MG) rahter than the (9! MG the Dutch had)
The early adoption of the Belgian Airforce could trigger the Dutch gouverment and the Dutch EI gouverment to purchase this aircraft earlier and in larger numbers, due to the simple Belgian/Dutch competitive between the countries. For instance istead of the Fokker T V ''bombers'' G1's could purchased.
Also the purchase and delivery or lincence manufacturing would materialise more than in OTL.

 

[Markus]

The aircraft would enter service slightly earlier and for the Belgians build in Belgium, of course.

It would end up a bit faster with Belguim made Hispano's liquid cooled engines ( not so relaible it seems) and a more balanced armamnend ( example 2x 20mm guns and 2 x 7,62 MG) rahter than the (9! MG the Dutch had).

If you install liquid-cooled inline engines you´ll loose a lot of time.

 

[Parma]

If you install liquid-cooled inline engines you´ll loose a lot of time.

The Design was developed in less tha 1/2 a year, suppse the Belgians were real interested in it they probably requested to be designed with the Belgian manufactured Hispano Suiza 12 Ybrs engines
This would result in some problems regarding desing but not much delay.
Asume the prototype stil flew in early 1937. With as in otl a armament of 2x 30mm guns and 3x7,62 mm MG all in the nose and one of them for the tail gunner. All armamnet of course from FN.
Production would commense the same year in Belgium.
Main Task is reconaisance/tactical bomber and heavy fighter agains enemy bombers.
Interceptor role would be done by the Renard R36.

 

[CalBear]

Reality check time

Heavy Fighters were an idea whose time had come and gone by 1935. The Me-110 is the classic example. Destroyer pilots died en-masse when they faced single seat fighters, be they Hurricanes, Mustangs, Spitfires, Thunderbolts Typhoon, or Tomahawks. THe G1 would have suffered the same fate against the Bf-109.

If you can get the Belgians to last into late 1943 when the aircraft can be radar equipped as a night fighter, or even be refitted as a ground attack aircraft with rockets, the aircraft could be of some use. Outside of those roles it is much effort for no gain.

 

[Markus]

The Design was developed in less tha 1/2 a year, suppse the Belgians were real interested in it they probably requested to be designed with the Belgian manufactured Hispano Suiza 12 Ybrs engines
This would result in some problems regarding desing but not much delay.

I´m not so sure.

late-july 1942: NAA get´s a contract to install Merlin 61 engines in two P-51 airframes

late-November: first flight of the XP-51B

January 1943: USAAF orders 2,000 P-51B

May-43: first flight of a production P-51B

and...

late June 1941: first flight of the XP-40F(Merlin 31)

early-January 42: deliveries of the P-40F begin


and...

The Miles Master. The first Master I with a RR Kestrel flew in March 39, the first Master II with a Bristol Mercury in November.

Considering the rather weak engines(830hp), the performance is ok and you can increase the power to 920hp by using 100 octane fuel. That is about the same as the contemp. HS12Y though this engine could generate up to 1085hp with 100 octane fuel. IMO it´s not worth the delay. They better order extra Buffaloes.

 

[lordroel]

Would the production of the Fokker G1. increase in the Netherlands , if Belgium , get licenses right to produce the Fokker G1.

And would both nation corporate whit each other concerning the Fokker G1.

 

[Just Leo]

In fighter parlance, the term defensive is almost synonymous with losing. Without early warning, all response is defensive. Belgium and the Netherlands are too small to offer a warning time sufficient to respond to a German attack. They could do better by attacking German bases. Neutrality meant that the two countries would not cooperate. There are lots of hardware WI's that would make no difference to the outcome. Hispano and Gnome-Rhone engine development was as slow as airframe development. The Fokker D XXI designer, Dr. Schatski, had to change companies to develop a superior D XXI, the Koolhoven FK. 58, an up-engined model with retractable gear. Fokker wasn't interested. It didn't change the world either. I have pondered a Merlin Westland Whirlwind, but you have to change the way people think, opinions and dogma, to change the world. Back then, people didn't know the future and often forgot the lessons of the past. Just like today.

 

[Astrodragon]

Reality check time

Heavy Fighters were an idea whose time had come and gone by 1935. The Me-110 is the classic example. Destroyer pilots died en-masse when they faced single seat fighters, be they Hurricanes, Mustangs, Spitfires, Thunderbolts Typhoon, or Tomahawks. THe G1 would have suffered the same fate against the Bf-109.

If you can get the Belgians to last into late 1943 when the aircraft can be radar equipped as a night fighter, or even be refitted as a ground attack aircraft with rockets, the aircraft could be of some use. Outside of those roles it is much effort for no gain.

Hmm, which would be why the Germans kept producing the Me110 all through the war..??

Heavy fighters were no use at dogfighting a single engine fighter, but they had a host of other uses - and they could do a job on another fighter in a dive attack, they were always fast...
Just use them properly and they are a very useful thing to have.

 

[HMS Warspite]

The Fokker G-1 was a good plane when designed, and likely would have been further developped, if time was on its side. Like its German and Britisdh counterparts, the design could easily have been developped into a very potent nightfighter equipped with radar, as the large fuselage allowed such addtiotions, where the more nimble single seated single engined fighter was too small innitially.

Eventually the Bf-110 became the mainstay of the Luftwaffe's nightfightersquadrons as was the Beafighter for the British. The G-1 had the same sort of potential, being comparable in overall charactaristics.

As was expected the G-1 was at a disadvantage compared to single engined aircraft, but this was common to all twin engined aircraft. It could possibly outrun one, but not outturn it in a dogfight. So it came on to tactics, rather than anything else. (The P-38 too was at the same sort of disadvantage, but used its high speed to make hit and run tactics on aereal targets.)

 

[CalBear]

Hmm, which would be why the Germans kept producing the Me110 all through the war..??

Heavy fighters were no use at dogfighting a single engine fighter, but they had a host of other uses - and they could do a job on another fighter in a dive attack, they were always fast...
Just use them properly and they are a very useful thing to have.

The Germans had both of the other factors I mentioned, a need for radar equipped night fighters and later in the war a ground attack version.

Even with that being said, every Me-110 built after 1941 was a waste of resources that would have been far better spent on FW-190s.

 

[Astrodragon]

The Germans had both of the other factors I mentioned, a need for radar equipped night fighters and later in the war a ground attack version.

Even with that being said, every Me-110 built after 1941 was a waste of resources that would have been far better spent on FW-190s.

How about the Hornet and the P-38, Calbear? They were heavy long range fighters.....

 

[Markus]

Hmm, which would be why the Germans kept producing the Me110 all through the war..??

Good question. The Ju88 looks like an equally good night fighter to me - a bit slower but still a lot faster than a Lancaster and more than twice the range of a Me110. So it was either a production bottleneck like not enough BMW 801 engines or the retooling of the factories would have caused too much downtime.

edit: The P-38 was the only (sort-of) exception to the rule. Sort-of because she initially(?) failed in her envisaged role and was a VERY demanding plane to fly throughout most of the war.

 

[Just Leo]

The Me-110 was effective in the Med as well as countering American bomber formations ie. Schweinfurt, Regensburg, 1943. Furthermore, Chuck Yeager might never have become an ace without "meat on the plate" 110's in 1944.