Bela-Alexios: Manuel I succeeded by son-in-law.

isabella

mitfrc said:
I'd rather start re-writing it. I'm thirty-five now, I was twenty then, I have a much better knowledge of history. Should I do it in this thread or start its own? I am new here...



That's completely true, but I'm not at all convinced that the Byzantines would be unable to win tactical victories against the Mongols, particularly if they had a large available supply of light steppe horsemen to integrate into their own formations. Remember that the Hungarians were comfortably holding the Mongols off on good terrain until the moment when they were flanked. The Hungarians had not forgotten their own origins and had some idea of how to fight a plains army. People forget it took twenty years of campaigning for the Mongols to conquer the Southern Song, who were several thousand miles closer to the Mongol homeland.
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Starting a new thread would be better
 

Curtain Jerker

I second (third?) a thread about this, would be a great read.

Short term, what happens to the Fourth Crusade in this scenario? Does it get butterflied away entirely?
 

Fehérvári

How would this dynasty be called though? At that time, the Árpád dynasty wasn't called like that, they were reffered to as the "Kindred of Holy/Saint Kings" instead. How would this translate to Greek? Maybe "Ágioi dynasty"/"Ágios dynasty"? Or rather they would be named according to their origin? Something like "Oungrikós dynasty"/"Oungrikói dynasty"?
 

Spatharios

It is unlikely that the Byzantines would use a foreign name for a Byzantine dynasty; they would simply stick with "Komnenos", as Bela was emperor by virtue of his marriage to Manuel's daughter, not on his own right.
 

isabella

Spatharios said:
It is unlikely that the Byzantines would use a foreign name for a Byzantine dynasty; they would simply stick with "Komnenos", as Bela was emperor by virtue of his marriage to Manuel's daughter, not on his own right.
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Likely as they would see Bela aka Alexios as adopted by Manuel in the Komnenos’ house and dynasty so he will be Alexios II Komnenos in the ERE
 

mitfrc

isabella said:
Likely as they would see Bela aka Alexios as adopted by Manuel in the Komnenos’ house and dynasty so he will be Alexios II Komnenos in the ERE
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This is absolutely correct; I see it working no other way and it's perfectly in line with Roman customs of rulership from very ancient times right up into the recent past in the ERE.
 

The Undead Martyr

Valin Arcadius said:
Probably butterflies it entirely, after all if Bela-Alexios is on the throne the Angeloi and their perfect storm of incompetence never get anywhere near the throne.
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Add to which that there is no massacre of the Latins and Venice will need to step lightly given Imperial control of Dalmatia and Albania. They are, after all, nominal vassals of the empire....
 
Iacobus

Iacobus

RogueTraderEnthusiast said:
I think this is probably one of those "Oh sweet christmas yes" PoDs for the Romans in terms of long-term survival, assuming Bela inherits Hungary. Hungary is basically another Balkans or Anatolia, not in terms perhaps of population density (yet), but another base from which to operate from. Its security within a Roman sphere is "Is the Danube Friendly?, Secure the Carpathians, Secure the West, Secure the Prutha." Which works very well with a Roman Balkans as the Danube is friendly, and also is interested in securing its west, which is common with Hungary, and the Pruth serves as protection for them as well.

Basically, Roman Hungary can reduce its overall defensive concerns to working with the existing Roman strategies west and east, whilst strengthening the Carpathians. The entire idea of securing the Danube disappears for both parties, and suddenly they have freer hands to resolve long-term defensive problems. (i.e. fortifying the Carpathians, send forces to secure Anatolia, support Italy against the HRE, etc).

You take that ability to secure common concerns, and then secure Anatolia? Suddenly you have not just the Balkans, but in the long run the Balkans, Anatolia, and Hungary as major regions for the Empire to recruit forces from. Ignoring that we've more or less undone Manzikert, with the exception of those new Turkish settlers who could be converted, this is an Empire that can really flourish in the long term.
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Nice, let's go with some optimism! This Roman POD has the advantage of being relatively late, so much of European history is set in place, and it's not ASB. If Spain could do the Reconquest from its position then Romania can most certainly commit to it's own in Anatolia, especially with Hungarian help and possible better relations with Latin Christendom. I think it would make sense, if seem every progressive, for Bela and Maria to be co-sovereigns like Ferdinand and Isabella (Spain) or William and Mary (England) as it can remedy the cultural differences between two crowns. Also Maria is permitted to raise her children Orthodox which would probably be a prerequisite.

As to military defence, I think you are broadly correct about a secure European front but be mindful of incoming Mongols in a few decades, they will hit Hungary hard though Romania will be able to mobilise to the defence pretty strongly. It may leave Hungary more dependent on Romania for a time after so therefore loyal. I was under the impression with the Third Crusade which would possibly follow a reconquest of Anatolia the powers of Europe, including the HRE would be co-operative with a strong competent Roman power with a Latin monarch and Latin troops.

You could have, by 1196 the date of Bela's OTL death, an empire from Hungary, across the Balkans, Anatolia, possibly up to Vaspurakan and down into Syria and perhaps Jerusalem under Roman suzerainty. Georgia is under Tamar the Great at this time so is a power in itself against which Romania brushes but hopefully Bela is wise and focuses on fighting Saladin in the south. When the Mongols come by in the 1240's Georgia is yet another interesting front to keep an eye on, it's so cool when you have powerful, cohesive realms that have common cause with one another and this period provides a few. From 1180 to 1260 could be an era of Pax Christendom when Latin, Orthodox and Oriental Christians are a relatively united front against Muslims and Pagans.

EDIT: I forgot about the dates here lol. I respond to a post way back but still...
 
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