Beer Hall Putch Successful.

Let's assume the Nazi attempt to take over the Bavarian government was much better organized and prepared. How much traction does this newborn movement have circa 1924-25? Where does a decade earlier Nazi start at government lead?
 
Is there a way to keep Hitler out? If so, Nazis might become "just another" right wing party. Simple anti-Semitism does not necessarily lead to the genocidal execution of Jews. As I have said before, if an author in the late twenties wrote a fiction piece that described the Holocaust as people were really killed, that book would be banned in many places, the author's sanity would be questioned and the world did not treat insane people very well in those years.
 
You'd have to purge several other crazies from the senior leadership too. They each had their own warped vision, but the end result is a bad dream for all. Imagine if Heydrich came out on top circa 1938? Or the SA had dominated from 1934... Goering was relatively sane by comparison, but in the grand scheme likely to create a dystopia as anyone.
 
... As I have said before, if an author in the late twenties wrote a fiction piece that described the Holocaust as people were really killed, that book would be banned in many places, the author's sanity would be questioned and the world did not treat insane people very well in those years.

Depends on the authors approach. Orwell hit a nerve with his novels. Most writers would have failed. Sinclair Lewis 'It Cant Happen Here' was a plausible story, but Lewis was not at the top of his game in delivery.
 
So, can the nazi party of 1924 gain further traction from controlling the Bavarian government, or does real capability derive from the conditions of 1930-33?
 

Deleted member 94680

So, can the nazi party of 1924 gain further traction from controlling the Bavarian government, or does real capability derive from the conditions of 1930-33?

"Taking over" Bavaria in 1924 does not equal controlling Germany.

Would a successful "Hitler Putsch" see the many Prussian aristocrats still in dominant positions in the Heer submit to the authority of a mere Austrian Corporal who has overthrown the rightful government of Germany's second state through violence with a bunch of street thugs in pseudo-uniforms? Somehow, I doubt it...
 

raharris1973

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Would the Nazi appointees and toughs now deputized by the Bavarian government become the civil authority in all parts of Bavaria, for instance, the Palatinate, which was occupied by French troops at the time?
 
Would the Nazi appointees and toughs now deputized by the Bavarian government become the civil authority in all parts of Bavaria, for instance, the Palatinate, which was occupied by French troops at the time?

They'd probably get in a fight with the French. Have to compare the withdrawal dates of the French & the coup.
 
In control of the government by 1925: wouldn't they (Nazis) then be seen as the cause of (or failure to stop) the great depression, and would not the Weimar Republic have had a chance to revitalize itself and become the economic answer?

Granted while depression did not bring down fascism in Italy, Germany was considerably more volatile; being blamed for depression the Nazis may have fallen from power.

Hitler could have become a German Hoover/MacDonald; gotten all the blame and disappeared from history.
 

NoMommsen

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Let's assume the Nazi attempt to take over the Bavarian government was much better organized and prepared. ...
How ?

Sry, but IMHO the Beerhall-putsch to succeed is simply ASB.

Pls remember :
-The by Hitler 'thought of' supporting him regular 'strong men' - v- Kahr, Lossow, Seßler, Killing _ were 'hijacked' by Hitler the evening og 9th November only.
-As soon as they came free they renounced their pressed(?) support for Hitler or rather Ludendorff as the figurehead and ordered the police to fire at them.
-The Nazis let enough members of the regular bavarian goverment flee to keep the 'regulat' goverment alive
-The Nazis had to get virtually ALL of their members and esp. SA-Bulies to Munich to pull off even this limited action (where from they hoped for the numbers to march against Berlin ? ... )

-The Reichswehr were NOT Hitlers friend. Just a fortnight ago the Nazi-press had deeply insulted v.Seeckt, at this point not only the leader but more or less the 'owner' of the Reichswehr.

Also : Hans v.Seeckt had 'just' got orders from Ebert at 29th Oktober for Saxony and at 6th November for Thuringia for 'Reichsexecution' whjich meant take-over of power by the Reichswehr by force in this countries of the german realm.
At 9th November the Reichswehr stooid fully armed and activated in Thuringia ... just in the way from Munich to Berlin ...
Even in the most improbably case that Hitler and Ludendorff would have succeeded the day of 9th November a couple of days, latest a week after it would have ended in front of Reichswehr rifles.
 
In control of the government by 1925: wouldn't they (Nazis) then be seen as the cause of (or failure to stop) the great depression, and would not the Weimar Republic have had a chance to revitalize itself and become the economic answer? ...

The Depression as a global phenomenon was understood in significant numbers, probably a majority. Gobbels could spin it as another example of the Jewish dominated banks screwing the good people for their own gain. That should get all the fools in town on script. With that sort of propaganda in place the next move is to publicly repudiate the ToV, the Dawes Plan, the Young Plan, and every other agreement inconvenient to the nazi government, or unpopular with voting blocs. After that its public works projects, real or fake & heavily publicized.
 
How ?

Sry, but IMHO the Beerhall-putsch to succeed is simply ASB.

Pls remember :
-The by Hitler 'thought of' supporting him regular 'strong men' - v- Kahr, Lossow, Seßler, Killing _ were 'hijacked' by Hitler the evening og 9th November only.
-As soon as they came free they renounced their pressed(?) support for Hitler or rather Ludendorff as the figurehead and ordered the police to fire at them.
-The Nazis let enough members of the regular bavarian goverment flee to keep the 'regulat' goverment alive
-The Nazis had to get virtually ALL of their members and esp. SA-Bulies to Munich to pull off even this limited action (where from they hoped for the numbers to march against Berlin ? ... )

-The Reichswehr were NOT Hitlers friend. Just a fortnight ago the Nazi-press had deeply insulted v.Seeckt, at this point not only the leader but more or less the 'owner' of the Reichswehr.​


Yes all that is difficult to get around with a quick sidestep. Just how deep must the changes run to get there?

Also : Hans v.Seeckt had 'just' got orders from Ebert at 29th Oktober for Saxony and at 6th November for Thuringia for 'Reichsexecution' whjich meant take-over of power by the Reichswehr by force in this countries of the german realm.
At 9th November the Reichswehr stooid fully armed and activated in Thuringia ... just in the way from Munich to Berlin ...

Tho i was not proposing a soonest march to Berlin with 1000 SA or whatever. Clearly a national movement has to be built up. Could that be accelerated with a 1920s nazi government established in Bavaria?

To alter the OP question, how much must be changed to get to a nazi government in Berlin five to six years earlier?
 
If the NSDAP was more successful, it would probably would have suffered higher body count due to more forceful action of the Reichswehr. Probably setting back the party.

If the NSDAP had waited for Kahr, Seisser and Lossow to launch their own putsch, and then counteracted it, they would have come off looking better. Maybe that gives the party more legitimacy earlier.
 
Even if by some dark miracle the BHP was a success, you'd need an immediate and timely French intervention on the side of the Nazi's BEFORE the Heer simply walks in and massacres the lot of them. Last I checked, undisciplined mobs more used to beating jews in an alleyway did not measure up too well against a trained, disciplined, and motivated professional force.
 
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Deleted member 94680

If the Nazi takeover of Bavaria results in a “march in Berlin” then the end result of a successful Beer Hall Putsch will be hundreds of dead Nazis and an appointment with the guillotine for messers Rohm, Hitler and Ludendorff.
 
The conditions did not exist to enable a successful coup. The party was barely known outside Bavaria, and did not have the support of any of the brokers of state power usually needed for such a coup. Ludenforff may have had some traction with the army, but even this was limited. Hitler came to realise this himself. Even in 1932, when he had mass public support, funding from the big industrialists, sympathisers within the army, and a sympathetic press, he still knew that he could only secure power if he obtained it through legal means. If the coup had been better organised, it would have either resulted in Hitler either being gunned down in a march on Berlin, or a much stiffer prison sentence which would have ended his career. Hitler and the Nazi party would be names unknown to all but a few speciallst historians.

Germany would then probably have evolved into something like the Kaiserreich, as the ineffective Weimar Parliament became increasingly impotent in the face of ultra-Conservative politicians governing by the enlistment of presidential decrees.
 
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