Beefed Up Polish Navy

This will be a big what if, but what if the Polish Navy had manged to get at least some of its big plans done for the Polish Navy, such as purchasing some old Allied or German battleships, forcing naval reparations from the Soviets in the Treaty of Riga or managed to build up more ships during the Inter war period, such as there plans for 12 more Grom class destroyers (acknowledged as some of the best destroyers at the beginning of the war), a float plane cruiser, and 3 battlescruisers that would be similar to the Scharnorst.
And just to say it now, for those who would say it would just all be captured or destroyed by the Germans, the Poles managed to have three destroyers sneak out of the Baltic to the UK, so it they would try it with a bigger fleet as well. Now of course, a bigger fleet could be spotted easier from the air, but the Polish ships also had rather heavy AA for pre-war ships, and if I'm not mistaken the operation was undertaken at night, so that eliminates most air threats. And one the fleet is in the North Sea, the RN could move in to help if the Germans sortie a large force to try and do battle with the Poles before they reach England.

Personally, I think the coolest (and most, without major ASB influence) thing would be if the Poles had managed to get one of the battlecruisers (Maybe ORP Oliva) done in time and say 8 Grom's. Then this force dose a super Peking and escapes at night to the UK and helps with Norway operations, maybe even protecting the carriers and fights of Scharnorst and Gneisenau from the Glorious. (Or maybe just scares them of, normally the Germans didn't engage if a big-gunned ship was present) From there they could help in the Atlantic in ASW and anti-raider patrols (Historically Polish destroyers helped sink the Bismark, they shadowed her at night) or go to the Med to help against Italy, or hell, maybe even to the Far East, a modern Battlecruiser in ABDA could help if its used competently.

So, thoughts?
 
Such a fleet would have been terribly expensive. Poland simply couldn't afford that. Also, they would have needed a really big military port, which is also very expensive.
As far as Operation Peking goes, IOTL Polish destroyers left to Britain before 1st of September, since nobody in Polish HQ believed Polish Navy would be able to deal with the Kriegsmarine on its own. The destroyers were supposed to come back with British and French help. If Poland had a big fleet it wouldn't have left so quickly and easily - Polish ships would have remained for at least some time in Poland to defend their country. And that would have been bad news for Germans. Poles would have suffered heavy losses, but so would Kregsmarine, which BTW didn't do too well against Poland IOTL .
 
Germany would certainly have acted to seize those ships or to destroy them. Most likely is the Luftwaffe makes a special effort. Alas, since this means Germany is more effective and better prepared for taking out naval forces...:(

Meanwhile what is Poland lacking if it wastes even more money? Smaller air force? Fewer tanks?

If Poland collapses even sooner the British and French may wonder if this is really worthwhile.
 

Markus

Banned
Such a fleet would have been terribly expensive. Poland simply couldn't afford that. Also, they would have needed a really big military port, which is also very expensive.
.

Worse, if Poland spends this much on the Navy it would have to spend less on the Army and Air Force.
 
Originally posted by Grimm Reaper
Germany would certainly have acted to seize those ships or to destroy them. Most likely is the Luftwaffe makes a special effort. Alas, since this means Germany is more effective and better prepared for taking out naval forces...

Germany building bigger navy and air force trained in anti-ship attacks means Britain is more concerned about them even before the war starts. That could mean RN and French Navy better prepared too.
 
Very unlikely. All it takes is a few squadrons of the Luftwaffe's existing bombers getting more practice with torpedos and...:(

There is, of course, no way Germany can hasten large numbers of major warships in time for the invasion of Poland.
 
Originally posted by Grimm Reaper
Very unlikely. All it takes is a few squadrons of the Luftwaffe's existing bombers getting more practice with torpedos and...

First of all, you need to adapt a bomber to do that (Ju-88 will do fine). Second of all, you need to have a lot of practice on sea - and that is hard to do without being noticed. That is way I wrote Britain would be concerned about it.
Anyway, that is purely academical discussion. Poland didn't have "beefed up" navy because she couldn't. OTOH... Imagine, Polish flotilla with a battle cruiser paying a night visit to some German naval base....;)
 
There was the incident at the start of the September campaign, when the destroyer ORP "Wicher", covering mine forces in the Gulf of Gdansk took off onto the German light cruiser, which sailed from the port in Pilau. But the Wicher has not opened fire from an unknown cause. Similarly, Germans.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Very unlikely. All it takes is a few squadrons of the Luftwaffe's existing bombers getting more practice with torpedos and...:(

There is, of course, no way Germany can hasten large numbers of major warships in time for the invasion of Poland.

They wouldn't need that any military harbours is overrun by the Wehrmacht the first day, and the entire Polish naval personel end up in prison camps rather fast.
 

Dure

Banned
Poland is on the Baltic and the Baltic alone it has no direct access to the deep ocean or even the North Sea, the Baltic is a shallow sea that can be closed by whoever controls Denmark or Sweden. It can even be closed by the RN. The Baltic is also a small sea and from a Polish perspective it is also home to two, possibly three other powerful and hostile navies, the German, Soviet and perhaps Swedish. Why then go for a navy that is more than a coastal defence force? It can't win against its two most plausible enemies all it can do is cost money. As it was the Polish navy was a silly size.
 
Originally posted by Valdemar II
They wouldn't need that any military harbours is overrun by the Wehrmacht the first day, and the entire Polish naval personel end up in prison camps rather fast.

Why? IOTL it took Germans almost three weeks to take control of Gdynia, and Hel kept fighting until October 1939.

Originally posted by Jeremak
There was the incident at the start of the September campaign, when the destroyer ORP "Wicher", covering mine forces in the Gulf of Gdansk took off onto the German light cruiser, which sailed from the port in Pilau. But the Wicher has not opened fire from an unknown cause. Similarly, Germans.
ORP "Wicher" was forbidden to open fire so Germans wouldn't realize Poles were laying mines there (it was night). Unfortunately, mine forces were called back, because XO of Polish big minelayer ORP "Gryf" ("Gryphon") panicked during an earlier air raid (which killed CO of the ship) and ordered to loose all mines unarmed. Because of radio silence nobody informed "Wicher" about it.

Originally posted by Dure
As it was the Polish navy was a silly size.
Yes and no. Polish Navy was designed to protect convoys from Britain and France in case of war with the Soviets, until wetern fleet arrives. But I agree, that some MTBs would be more useful than big submarines like "Orzeł".
 
Yes and no. Polish Navy was designed to protect convoys from Britain and France in case of war with the Soviets, until wetern fleet arrives. But I agree, that some MTBs would be more useful than big submarines like "Orzeł".

I'm not that sure about MTB's which proved to be mostly disappointments in all Second World War navies. Destroyers were far more useful. As for "Orzel", it was too big but then again smallest WW II submarines such as Type II and Soviet M-class weren't that great a success either. Perhaps something sized circa German Type VII or British U would have been the best choice?
 
Poland ordered few MTBs before war in Great Britan, but it didn't take them before war. But there was built, and crewed by Polish in GB, later, after September.
 
As it was the Polish Navy was a gigantic waste of resources.

Given what was spent on the destroyers, the subs, smaller ships and the naval base which had to be built from scratch, not to mention delays and confusion in overall defense spending while truly bizarre schemes were considered and shot down(especially those involving battleships, Poland could have had a substantially stronger air force and another two or three tank brigades in 1939 in place of a handful of destroyers ordered to flee at the start of hostilities.
 
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