Beating a Dead Sea Mammal: How can a non-ASB Operation Sea Lion thread be created?

nbcman

Donor
A couple of other factors may be necessary:
1. Spain joins the Axis and takes Gibraltar. This allows the Regia Marina go into the atlantic to buff the KM. And the RM is a very formidable force

Maybe to help compete against a numerically superior British Navy?

Unless the Italians are more prepared, the RM only has 2 old BBs available in the summer of 1940 as their two newest BBs were still working up. A couple of short legged WW1 era BBs isn't going to buff the KM much assuming they can get into the Atlantic.
 
What if we further stipulate that France turns fascist for reasons in the 1930s and then Britain is attacked by a united continental Europe?

I mean, if Italy's going to be mass-producing Germany's navy for it and Spain's going to take Gibraltar and Germany's going to move from gun-based destroyers to guided missile destroyers, why not just commit to the bit here?

Sure. why not toss in Russia, too, for g and g's.
 
Okay another PoD that is that Franco's initial assault on Madrid succeeds, bringing a swift end to the Spanish Civil War in 1937. This may give Spain some stomach in joining the Axis.

What happens when Gibraltar falls is that the Regia Marina can easily conduct operations in the Atlantic. This along with other PoDs, including failed Dynamo and Germans possessing specialized LC MIGHT just allow Jerry to go on Sea Mammal adventures.

Alan Brooke, commander in chief of the Home forces stated in his diary that he "had every intention of using sprayed mustard gas on the beaches". This assumes Jerry gets the necessary prerequisites to make a channel crossing.
 
Okay another PoD that is that Franco's initial assault on Madrid succeeds, bringing a swift end to the Spanish Civil War in 1937. This may give Spain some stomach in joining the Axis.

What happens when Gibraltar falls is that the Regia Marina can easily conduct operations in the Atlantic. This along with other PoDs, including failed Dynamo and Germans possessing specialized LC MIGHT just allow Jerry to go on Sea Mammal adventures.

Alan Brooke, commander in chief of the Home forces stated in his diary that he "had every intention of using sprayed mustard gas on the beaches". This assumes Jerry gets the necessary prerequisites to make a channel crossing.

Great you send the RM to the Atlantic, how many of the RN's Mediterranean Fleet's 5 battleships follow? How many cruisers, how many destroyers? The Problem (capital P for a reason) being the RM has maybe the numbers to bring the Axis up to equality with the British Home Area naval forces but it risks either releasing assets to cancel out the Italian redeployment or cutting Libya, Sardinia and even worst case scenario Sicily from supply or if mishandled potentially both.

Also recall that when defending against an amphibious landing a smaller fleet will do, let alone one with parity or greater.
 
Okay another PoD that is that Franco's initial assault on Madrid succeeds, bringing a swift end to the Spanish Civil War in 1937. This may give Spain some stomach in joining the Axis.

What happens when Gibraltar falls is that the Regia Marina can easily conduct operations in the Atlantic. This along with other PoDs, including failed Dynamo and Germans possessing specialized LC MIGHT just allow Jerry to go on Sea Mammal adventures.

Alan Brooke, commander in chief of the Home forces stated in his diary that he "had every intention of using sprayed mustard gas on the beaches". This assumes Jerry gets the necessary prerequisites to make a channel crossing.

Back to the oil tankers again. *(The RM is short ranged.) And I wonder who in Spain will lynch Franco first? Barcelona's citizens, Cadiz or Madrid after the two division butcher's bill for the failed assault he mounts on the Rock becomes known?
 
Hitler or Nazi leader always wanting to destroy Britain. Large scale surrender of British forces at Dunkirk.

Airborn landing on a East Coast Port. Liners carrying tanks and an armoured brigade land, escorted with submarines as well

The devil continuing to give the NAZIS luck

British government panics and does bad deal
 
Done.

Does that qualify as non-ASB as per the title of the thread, or have we irreparably lost our way here?

Well, Napoleon was trying some crazy stuff akin to these ideas (Franco Spanish alliance.) around 21 October 1805. I think we might be sailing closer to the wind than he was. Don't you think so?
 
Hitler or Nazi leader always wanting to destroy Britain. Large scale surrender of British forces at Dunkirk.

Airborn landing on a East Coast Port. Liners carrying tanks and an armoured brigade land, escorted with submarines as well

The devil continuing to give the NAZIS luck

British government panics and does bad deal

How do your liners carrying tanks and an armoured brigade get past the large numbers of destroyers, MTBs and other small warships the RN has in the Channel to confront them? The fate of the RMS Lancastria also suggests that liners are extremely vulnerable to air attack.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Makes sense. After all, the motto of Italian fascism was, "We move Germans." I'm sure they'd be happy to convert their industrial production over to churning out support ships for a foreign power.

While you're at it, maybe if they ask nicely the Japanese will send their fleet to the party too.


Ignoring the fact that Italy was the subordinate power even IOTL I see.

If Italy has any sense, they'll realize they can't take the RN alone. Hell, only the United States and Japan might have been able to do it on their own.

And they'll be fighting the UK if the Axis gets sucked in.

So Italy can either get her ass kicked around the Mediterranean, or back the Germans if they think they have a shot.


Frankly German-Italian cooperation should have been much greater from the start. Germany tools up Italy to build panzers, free exchange of weapon military technology, joint war games, etc.

Italy needed the leg up, Germany could have benefited from their experience with aviation in the mid 30's.

So, yeah, Italy would absolutely build landing craft if you approach it correctly. "Hey Benny, sure would be handy if you could drop troops right on the Greek coast and avoid all those mountains. Maybe we could use a few transports and landing craft".

As far as the naval cooperation goes, if Germany bags the French fleet, and Hitler tells him they're going to try and cripple the Royal Navy, and that they wanw the Italians to be a part of it, Mussolini would jump on that in a heart beat.
 
You guys are really lacking imagination. There are tons of scenarios where Sea Lion is a success! Here's one:
Hitler, as soon as he take France, immediately conscript the entire French population to build a land bridge from Calais to Dover. The French enthusiastically comply and because of this massive workforce, the project is done in a night. Britain is caught with her pants down, the Ghost Division reaches London by midday, and the cowardly Englishmen surrender immediately afterward.
Hitler can then go on to building a causeway from Scotland to Canada, which he swiftly invade, before invading the USA which are completely surprised by this turn of events and lose in less than a week, when the panzers reach Washington.
Easy!
 
You guys are really lacking imagination. There are tons of scenarios where Sea Lion is a success! Here's one:
Hitler, as soon as he take France, immediately conscript the entire French population to build a land bridge from Calais to Dover. The French enthusiastically comply and because of this massive workforce, the project is done in a night. Britain is caught with her pants down, the Ghost Division reaches London by midday, and the cowardly Englishmen surrender immediately afterward.
Hitler can then go on to building a cause way from Scotland to Canada, which he swiftly invade, before invading the USA qhich are completely surprised by this turn of events and lose in less than a week, when the panzers reach Washington.
Easy!
Are you on drugs? This would never work. Hitler once said conquering the US would be like conquering the moon. Only way Germans invade is through the use of Alien Space Bats in your scenario.
 

hipper

Banned
Okay another PoD that is that Franco's initial assault on Madrid succeeds, bringing a swift end to the Spanish Civil War in 1937. This may give Spain some stomach in joining the Axis.

What happens when Gibraltar falls is that the Regia Marina can easily conduct operations in the Atlantic. This along with other PoDs, including failed Dynamo and Germans possessing specialized LC MIGHT just allow Jerry to go on Sea Mammal adventures.

Alan Brooke, commander in chief of the Home forces stated in his diary that he "had every intention of using sprayed mustard gas on the beaches". This assumes Jerry gets the necessary prerequisites to make a channel crossing.

The RM might be a little troubled by the RN Shelling Italian Ports while their Battleships were discovering that operating in the Atlantic without air cover would be rather dangerous. historically the RM fled for home at the first sight of carrier aircraft.
 

King Thomas

Banned
How about the Germans assassinating Churchill before WW2 breaking out? Whilst that might not lead to a successful Sealion, it might mean the UK makes a compromise peace with Germany in 1940.
 
Well, Napoleon was trying some crazy stuff akin to these ideas (Franco Spanish alliance.) around 21 October 1805. I think we might be sailing closer to the wind than he was. Don't you think so?

Napoleon had some good ideas...

chunnel_invasion.jpg
 
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