Beating a Dead Sea Mammal: How can a non-ASB Operation Sea Lion thread be created?

NoMommsen

Donor
The "Sea Lion did not have a chance in hell to succeed" threads make me think - why the OTL panic then?
...
Ofc only to distract the Nazis and "lure" them into the well prepared and as such ofc planned way ahead of it's happening trap of at least the BoB.

But Hitler was too stupid o stumble into the trap of an invasion, to be beaten by the "League of Extarordinary Gentlemen" the Home Guard with out a doubt was in 1940 to 1942. Not even the bait of 300.000 men captured at dunkirk helped enough to lure Hitler into the "sensible solution", Britain was so well prepared for.

(Do I need an *irony* button or alreayd an *sarcasm* button for this ?)
 

hipper

Banned
True, but we are not talking of OTL.

And ... in ITTL, being more into the "asymetric thinking" of military power, the germans might have build more small units instead of some high-pressure-high-temperatur "steam boats" ... i.e. no "similia similibus" and you don't need at least the "later" twins.
(just first examples commin to my mind)

It’s hard to convert a plant making steam turbines to Making Diesels, takes ages lots of inefficiencies, and the the High performance Diesels were used in expanding the U boat fleet. Of course the Germans could have started using aviation engines but good luck getting them out of Gorings clutches

The Big issue is that no one thought that France would have collapsed in June 1940 so everyone had to make do with what they had.
 
I have no contempt for logistics.

Everyone else seems to lack an appreciation of the fact that the British regulars could respond within a day or two, plenty quickly to prevent any sort of strategic success by the Germans.

If the Germans don't have the supplies to expend on the Home Army, then they never had the supplies to pose a threat in the first place.

If they haf the supplies to pose a threat, then they have the supplies to go through the home army like tissue paper.
A day or two? Well I don't know bout the German army but I could certainly walk 50 miles in a day if pushed and with no opposition. Guess what's within 50 miles of the channel coast (London). Sexing London is certainly some sort of strategic success and within the capabilities of a Sea lion with no opposition for a day or two.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
It’s hard to convert a plant making steam turbines to Making Diesels, takes ages lots of inefficiencies, and the the High performance Diesels were used in expanding the U boat fleet. Of course the Germans could have started using aviation engines but good luck getting them out of Gorings clutches
I'm a bit astonished ... given your board name I would have thought you would know better.

The steam turbines and boiler were not made in some "plants" or special factories. They were build and assembled on the wharfs itself, admitted, some parts of the boilers or even the whole boilers could be delivered from elswhere. But there they were also "hand-made single-items". In essence : everys ship propulsion plant, esp. from light cruiser size upwards, was a "hand-made" single-item.

OTOH : Diesel engines in the 1000 hp class for boats and ships WERE already in serial production since the late twenties (developed for "speed-boats" since 1923, development started during the Ruhr-occupation).

So : no "plant" to be converted. Only new ones set up during the "boom" after power take-over in the early/mid-thirties ITTL (similat to the "boom" of OTL). No conversion of aircraft-engines necessary (what, btw, worked pretty well IOTL with the "Siebel Ferries").
 

hipper

Banned
I'm a bit astonished ... given your board name I would have thought you would know better.

The steam turbines and boiler were not made in some "plants" or special factories. They were build and assembled on the wharfs itself, admitted, some parts of the boilers or even the whole boilers could be delivered from elswhere. But there they were also "hand-made single-items". In essence : everys ship propulsion plant, esp. from light cruiser size upwards, was a "hand-made" single-item.

OTOH : Diesel engines in the 1000 hp class for boats and ships WERE already in serial production since the late twenties (developed for "speed-boats" since 1923, development started during the Ruhr-occupation).

So : no "plant" to be converted. Only new ones set up during the "boom" after power take-over in the early/mid-thirties ITTL (similat to the "boom" of OTL). No conversion of aircraft-engines necessary (what, btw, worked pretty well IOTL with the "Siebel Ferries").

you are kind of agreeing with me no conversion just new build, what do you propose not building instead? Ie what is not built so the Deisel engine plants can be? And more interestingly Why do the Germans think they need to have so many coastal forces in the mid thirties.
 
That, I feel, all still applies even if the Germans decided to destroy the British at Dunkirk rather than letting them escape.

This is as big a myth as a successful Sealion. There were sound reasons for the so call halt order and even after the Panzers stopped for a much needed chance to regroup the remaining Germans forces maintained their pressure on the perimeter.
 

Deleted member 94680

There's always a reason to keep these threads going - they always throw up at least one comedy gem like this. Proof for the underlined (or are you just making arbitrary determinations with little to no value)?

Nothing arbitrary about it. Nations call up troops, usually to a specified medical grade. Germany did that throughout WWII, when these men ‘ran out’ they called up the people rejected initially (the ‘second line’ troops), when these men ‘ran out’ they called up the ‘third line’ troops. The Volksturm in Germany were the men the Nazis (not the Heer) called up that the Heer had not called for second- or third-line service. The Home Guard, owing to the levels of available ‘first line’ men called up in Britain were those that, by definition, would be equal to later second or third line troops in Germany. The older, initially medically rejected, or protected occupation individuals the first line call ups had rejected. The state of the manpower pool in Britain was nowhere near as critical as it was in Germany when the Volksturm were called up. Therefore, the Home Guard soldiers would be better than the Volksturm soldiers. It’s not difficult to understand, I would have thought.

I said that the weapons tech was too primitive in so many words, not sure how that was funny. Something if the Nazis had survived they might have developed kind of like the Iranians. No where did I say that they could do this in the 40s.

You were suggesting fleets of OTL-nonexistent attack boats armed with OTL-nonexistent weaponry was a reasonable solution to the vast superiority in materiel that the Royal Navy enjoyed. Anti-ship missiles (in the form of the Hs 293) were introduced in ‘43 and required a bomber to deliver them. Somehow, whilst fighting OTL WWII, the Germans are meant to develop something akin to the 1959 Shaddock (but smaller, to be usable from S-boots?) and in sufficient quantities to decimate the Royal Navy? I apologise for any offence caused, but it’s so outlandishly ASB I found it funny. It also reminded me of the “artillery strapped to barges” argument from a previous USM thread.
 
The "Sea Lion did not have a chance in hell to succeed" threads make me think - why the OTL panic then?
The excitable PM aside, the UK must have had some cool heads around ...

Well not exactly a panic but they overestimated the possibility because they had an exaggerated opinion of German capabilities in the wake of the fall of France and massively underestimated the complexities of amphibious warfare.
 
A day or two? Well I don't know bout the German army but I could certainly walk 50 miles in a day if pushed and with no opposition. Guess what's within 50 miles of the channel coast (London). Sexing London is certainly some sort of strategic success and within the capabilities of a Sea lion with no opposition for a day or two.

... Look, I know Soho has a reputation, but it's not that bad.
 
you are kind of agreeing with me no conversion just new build, what do you propose not building instead? Ie what is not built so the Deisel engine plants can be? And more interestingly Why do the Germans think they need to have so many coastal forces in the mid thirties.

they built "so many coastal forces" in the 1930's there was (my view) misfire with the diesel R-boats, if instead they had built more capable combatant S-boats instead the KM could have plausibly had 50 - 60 at the beginning of war (both built off of same Lurssen hull design)

they could have done the logical (yes another comedy gem) and built coal-fired M-boats exclusively for overdue replacement of WWI holdovers, and filling duties of R-boats.

(in 1940 the KM had 22 S-boats, 63 R-boats, and 31 M-boats including WWI ships)
 
Nothing arbitrary about it. Nations call up troops, usually to a specified medical grade. Germany did that throughout WWII, when these men ‘ran out’ they called up the people rejected initially (the ‘second line’ troops), when these men ‘ran out’ they called up the ‘third line’ troops. The Volksturm in Germany were the men the Nazis (not the Heer) called up that the Heer had not called for second- or third-line service. The Home Guard, owing to the levels of available ‘first line’ men called up in Britain were those that, by definition, would be equal to later second or third line troops in Germany. The older, initially medically rejected, or protected occupation individuals the first line call ups had rejected. The state of the manpower pool in Britain was nowhere near as critical as it was in Germany when the Volksturm were called up. Therefore, the Home Guard soldiers would be better than the Volksturm soldiers. It’s not difficult to understand, I would have thought.

You have yet to prove that the Volksturm was more filled with those over 50 than was the Home Guard, anyways. The Home Guard was not dominated by men over 50 percentage wise, no, but where is the source that says that the Volksturm was? And even if the Volksturm were filled with men over 50 predominantly (the cut off was 60), it has absolutely no bearing on proving that they were any less of an effective fighting force than the British army/Home guard

You were suggesting fleets of OTL-nonexistent attack boats armed with OTL-nonexistent weaponry was a reasonable solution to the vast superiority in materiel that the Royal Navy enjoyed. Anti-ship missiles (in the form of the Hs 293) were introduced in ‘43 and required a bomber to deliver them. Somehow, whilst fighting OTL WWII, the Germans are meant to develop something akin to the 1959 Shaddock (but smaller, to be usable from S-boots?) and in sufficient quantities to decimate the Royal Navy? I apologise for any offence caused, but it’s so outlandishly ASB I found it funny. It also reminded me of the “artillery strapped to barges” argument from a previous USM thread.

Strawman. I even stated that the weapon technology didn't exist, that's why I didn't say the Germans should build a bunch of E-boats and stick Styx or Silkworm equivalent anti-ship missiles to them. Otherwise, if it was this case, then you might find that 200 of these boats could take an aircraft carrier. Considering the tonnage ship building wise that the Germans seemingly had, I don't think it was beyond the Germans capability to build them, even if they didn't have the anti-ship missiles
 
...also there was a post-war evolution of S-boat that seems feasible earlier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar-class_fast_attack_craft that could carry 23 mines, deployment of which was important duty of wartime S-boats but they could only carry 6 - 8 limiting their effectiveness.

they built "so many coastal forces" in the 1930's there was (my view) misfire with the diesel R-boats, if instead they had built more capable combatant S-boats instead the KM could have plausibly had 50 - 60 at the beginning of war (both built off of same Lurssen hull design)

(in 1940 the KM had 22 S-boats, 63 R-boats, and 31 M-boats including WWI ships)

Strawman. I even stated that the weapon technology didn't exist, that's why I didn't say the Germans should build a bunch of E-boats and stick Styx or Silkworm equivalent anti-ship missiles to them. Otherwise, if it was this case, then you might find that 200 of these boats could take an aircraft carrier. Considering the tonnage ship building wise that the Germans seemingly had, I don't think it was beyond the Germans capability to build them, even if they didn't have the anti-ship missiles

they DID have magnetic mines ... my point was the post-war S-boat was very feasible, simply an enlargement of wartime craft. had they replaced the R-boats with coal-fired M-boats (which they planned to build triple the number) that would have actually simplified their building program.
 

Deleted member 94680

You have yet to prove that the Volksturm was more filled with those over 50 than was the Home Guard, anyways. The Home Guard was not dominated by men over 50 percentage wise, no, but where is the source that says that the Volksturm was? And even if the Volksturm were filled with men over 50 predominantly (the cut off was 60), it has absolutely no bearing on proving that they were any less of an effective fighting force than the British army/Home guard

Yet to prove? Look it up, it’s stated fact. Where is the source? A simple search for the wiki article has the sentence “It was staffed by conscripting males between the ages of 16 and 60 years who were not already serving in some military unit as part of a German Home Guard.” in the opening paragraph. Later on, it’s explained “So additional categories of men were called into service, including those in non-essential jobs, those previously deemed unfit, over-age, or under-age, and those recovering from wounds.” Finally “Units were mostly composed of members of the Hitler Youth, invalids, the elderly, or men who had previously been considered unfit for military service. Further desperation showed when on 12 February 1945, the Nazis conscripted German women and girls into the auxiliaries of the Volkssturm.” The Volksturm were boys, old men, injured soldiers and eventually women and children. If you believe that is equivalent to the Home Guard, fair enough. I don’t.

Strawman. I even stated that the weapon technology didn't exist, that's why I didn't say the Germans should build a bunch of E-boats and stick Styx or Silkworm equivalent anti-ship missiles to them.

Apologies, when you said
German E-boat development was nothing to laugh at at least. Massing large swarms of these using anti-ship missiles (albeit the German ones were still very primitive at this point so as to probably preclude this) is exactly the kind of asymmetric thinking that could have potentially allowed the German navy to actually defeat the RN.
I believed you meant to build lots of E-boats and use anti-ship missies.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Well they did a exercise in 1974, if you like what might happen see the link.

What if: Operation Sealion, summary of an exercise held in 1974.
And even then, they had to preclude the RN or RAF interdicting the invasion in the Channel as a condition of the war game. Otherwise, the entire game would have read: 0400, German military begins attempted invasion of British Isles.
0430, invasion flotilla engaged by units of Royal Navy and Royal Air Force
2100 invasion destroyed, no organised enemy forces landed
 
And even then, they had to preclude the RN or RAF interdicting the invasion in the Channel as a condition of the war game. Otherwise, the entire game would have read: 0400, German military begins attempted invasion of British Isles.
0430, invasion flotilla engaged by units of Royal Navy and Royal Air Force
2100 invasion destroyed, no organised enemy forces landed
But still you can see, the Germans had no change at all to complete this operation with success.
 
And it must be remembered they had to cheat with the scenario, the RN did not attack the Germans until AFTER they had landed to enable them to have a fight rather than a slaughter on the beaches.
Well maybe the British players felt sorry for the German players, otherwise it would have been a bigger slaughter i would asume.
 
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