That's 20/20 hindsight for youThe "Sea Lion did not have a chance in hell to succeed" threads make me think - why the OTL panic then?
The excitable PM aside, the UK must have had some cool heads around ...
That's 20/20 hindsight for youThe "Sea Lion did not have a chance in hell to succeed" threads make me think - why the OTL panic then?
The excitable PM aside, the UK must have had some cool heads around ...
Ofc only to distract the Nazis and "lure" them into the well prepared and as such ofc planned way ahead of it's happening trap of at least the BoB.The "Sea Lion did not have a chance in hell to succeed" threads make me think - why the OTL panic then?
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The "Sea Lion did not have a chance in hell to succeed" threads make me think - why the OTL panic then?
The excitable PM aside, the UK must have had some cool heads around ...
True, but we are not talking of OTL.
And ... in ITTL, being more into the "asymetric thinking" of military power, the germans might have build more small units instead of some high-pressure-high-temperatur "steam boats" ... i.e. no "similia similibus" and you don't need at least the "later" twins.
(just first examples commin to my mind)
A day or two? Well I don't know bout the German army but I could certainly walk 50 miles in a day if pushed and with no opposition. Guess what's within 50 miles of the channel coast (London). Sexing London is certainly some sort of strategic success and within the capabilities of a Sea lion with no opposition for a day or two.I have no contempt for logistics.
Everyone else seems to lack an appreciation of the fact that the British regulars could respond within a day or two, plenty quickly to prevent any sort of strategic success by the Germans.
If the Germans don't have the supplies to expend on the Home Army, then they never had the supplies to pose a threat in the first place.
If they haf the supplies to pose a threat, then they have the supplies to go through the home army like tissue paper.
I'm a bit astonished ... given your board name I would have thought you would know better.It’s hard to convert a plant making steam turbines to Making Diesels, takes ages lots of inefficiencies, and the the High performance Diesels were used in expanding the U boat fleet. Of course the Germans could have started using aviation engines but good luck getting them out of Gorings clutches
I'm a bit astonished ... given your board name I would have thought you would know better.
The steam turbines and boiler were not made in some "plants" or special factories. They were build and assembled on the wharfs itself, admitted, some parts of the boilers or even the whole boilers could be delivered from elswhere. But there they were also "hand-made single-items". In essence : everys ship propulsion plant, esp. from light cruiser size upwards, was a "hand-made" single-item.
OTOH : Diesel engines in the 1000 hp class for boats and ships WERE already in serial production since the late twenties (developed for "speed-boats" since 1923, development started during the Ruhr-occupation).
So : no "plant" to be converted. Only new ones set up during the "boom" after power take-over in the early/mid-thirties ITTL (similat to the "boom" of OTL). No conversion of aircraft-engines necessary (what, btw, worked pretty well IOTL with the "Siebel Ferries").
That, I feel, all still applies even if the Germans decided to destroy the British at Dunkirk rather than letting them escape.
There's always a reason to keep these threads going - they always throw up at least one comedy gem like this. Proof for the underlined (or are you just making arbitrary determinations with little to no value)?
I said that the weapons tech was too primitive in so many words, not sure how that was funny. Something if the Nazis had survived they might have developed kind of like the Iranians. No where did I say that they could do this in the 40s.
The "Sea Lion did not have a chance in hell to succeed" threads make me think - why the OTL panic then?
The excitable PM aside, the UK must have had some cool heads around ...
A day or two? Well I don't know bout the German army but I could certainly walk 50 miles in a day if pushed and with no opposition. Guess what's within 50 miles of the channel coast (London). Sexing London is certainly some sort of strategic success and within the capabilities of a Sea lion with no opposition for a day or two.
you are kind of agreeing with me no conversion just new build, what do you propose not building instead? Ie what is not built so the Deisel engine plants can be? And more interestingly Why do the Germans think they need to have so many coastal forces in the mid thirties.
Nothing arbitrary about it. Nations call up troops, usually to a specified medical grade. Germany did that throughout WWII, when these men ‘ran out’ they called up the people rejected initially (the ‘second line’ troops), when these men ‘ran out’ they called up the ‘third line’ troops. The Volksturm in Germany were the men the Nazis (not the Heer) called up that the Heer had not called for second- or third-line service. The Home Guard, owing to the levels of available ‘first line’ men called up in Britain were those that, by definition, would be equal to later second or third line troops in Germany. The older, initially medically rejected, or protected occupation individuals the first line call ups had rejected. The state of the manpower pool in Britain was nowhere near as critical as it was in Germany when the Volksturm were called up. Therefore, the Home Guard soldiers would be better than the Volksturm soldiers. It’s not difficult to understand, I would have thought.
You were suggesting fleets of OTL-nonexistent attack boats armed with OTL-nonexistent weaponry was a reasonable solution to the vast superiority in materiel that the Royal Navy enjoyed. Anti-ship missiles (in the form of the Hs 293) were introduced in ‘43 and required a bomber to deliver them. Somehow, whilst fighting OTL WWII, the Germans are meant to develop something akin to the 1959 Shaddock (but smaller, to be usable from S-boots?) and in sufficient quantities to decimate the Royal Navy? I apologise for any offence caused, but it’s so outlandishly ASB I found it funny. It also reminded me of the “artillery strapped to barges” argument from a previous USM thread.
...also there was a post-war evolution of S-boat that seems feasible earlier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar-class_fast_attack_craft that could carry 23 mines, deployment of which was important duty of wartime S-boats but they could only carry 6 - 8 limiting their effectiveness.
they built "so many coastal forces" in the 1930's there was (my view) misfire with the diesel R-boats, if instead they had built more capable combatant S-boats instead the KM could have plausibly had 50 - 60 at the beginning of war (both built off of same Lurssen hull design)
(in 1940 the KM had 22 S-boats, 63 R-boats, and 31 M-boats including WWI ships)
Strawman. I even stated that the weapon technology didn't exist, that's why I didn't say the Germans should build a bunch of E-boats and stick Styx or Silkworm equivalent anti-ship missiles to them. Otherwise, if it was this case, then you might find that 200 of these boats could take an aircraft carrier. Considering the tonnage ship building wise that the Germans seemingly had, I don't think it was beyond the Germans capability to build them, even if they didn't have the anti-ship missiles
You have yet to prove that the Volksturm was more filled with those over 50 than was the Home Guard, anyways. The Home Guard was not dominated by men over 50 percentage wise, no, but where is the source that says that the Volksturm was? And even if the Volksturm were filled with men over 50 predominantly (the cut off was 60), it has absolutely no bearing on proving that they were any less of an effective fighting force than the British army/Home guard
Strawman. I even stated that the weapon technology didn't exist, that's why I didn't say the Germans should build a bunch of E-boats and stick Styx or Silkworm equivalent anti-ship missiles to them.
I believed you meant to build lots of E-boats and use anti-ship missies.German E-boat development was nothing to laugh at at least. Massing large swarms of these using anti-ship missiles (albeit the German ones were still very primitive at this point so as to probably preclude this) is exactly the kind of asymmetric thinking that could have potentially allowed the German navy to actually defeat the RN.
Well they did a exercise in 1974, if you like what might happen see the link.WARNING: THIS DOES NOT DISPLAY A COUNTERFACTUAL SCENARIO!
This thread is created with the purpose of discussing a non-ASB successful Operation Sea Lion.
So what must happen to create a non-ASB Sea Lion?
And even then, they had to preclude the RN or RAF interdicting the invasion in the Channel as a condition of the war game. Otherwise, the entire game would have read: 0400, German military begins attempted invasion of British Isles.Well they did a exercise in 1974, if you like what might happen see the link.
What if: Operation Sealion, summary of an exercise held in 1974.
But still you can see, the Germans had no change at all to complete this operation with success.And even then, they had to preclude the RN or RAF interdicting the invasion in the Channel as a condition of the war game. Otherwise, the entire game would have read: 0400, German military begins attempted invasion of British Isles.
0430, invasion flotilla engaged by units of Royal Navy and Royal Air Force
2100 invasion destroyed, no organised enemy forces landed
And it must be remembered they had to cheat with the scenario, the RN did not attack the Germans until AFTER they had landed to enable them to have a fight rather than a slaughter on the beaches.Well they did a exercise in 1974, if you like what might happen see the link.
What if: Operation Sealion, summary of an exercise held in 1974.
Well maybe the British players felt sorry for the German players, otherwise it would have been a bigger slaughter i would asume.And it must be remembered they had to cheat with the scenario, the RN did not attack the Germans until AFTER they had landed to enable them to have a fight rather than a slaughter on the beaches.