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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/secret-files-reveal-nazis-tested-9905027

Secret files reveal Nazis 'tested nuclear bomb' before end of WW2 as Adolf Hitler plotted to decimate Britain by Allan Hall

The Daily Mirror has made serious reportage errors in the past.

For example: Hans Zinsser is not a German test pilot.




Nazi_bomb.png


Just one look shows that this is not a credible bomb design.


http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/95524

Manfred Petritsch 2018 geopolitical analysis + US 'ignited' Los Alamos bomb with Nazi nuclear know-how

This source is not even Ed Wood credible.

I think, I would ask for better citations. This is just my own personal opinion. YMMV.
 

Ian_W

Banned
Are people seriously arguing that the Nazis built and tested a nuclear device? Because that's absurd.

Thats what they thought, too.

"Following the German defeat, the Allies detained ten German scientists, at Farm Hall, a bugged house in Godmanchester, England, from July 3, 1945 to January 3, 1946. Some of them, such as Heisenberg, Kurt Diebner, and Carl von Weiszacker were directly involved in the project, while others, such as Otto Hahn and Max von Laue, were only suspected and later proven to have not been involved. Heisenberg's disbelief after hearing that the United States had dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima confirmed in the minds of the Allies that the German effort was never close. As one German scientist exclaimed, it must have taken "factories large as the United States to make that much uranium-235!" "

https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/german-atomic-bomb-project
 
Wow. Your own sources are very clear that no one even knows what the hell this "device" was supposed to do, how it was made, what it contained, or even what it looked like. That is worlds away from A FUNCTIONING nuclear bomb. At best, they built a dirty bomb. That is not a successful Nuclear program

What about the words 'mushroom cloud' in your mind does not qualify as successful?

More surprsing, if not shocking, is another revelationi in RK's book: a group of scientists under Diebner built and tested a nuclear weapon wit the strong support of both Walther Gerlach - an experimental nucleaer physicist who by 1944 was in charge of the uranium project for the Reich Research Council. (Hahn, Heisenberg, von Weizsäcker and most of the better-known scientists in the uranium project apparently were not informed about this weapon.) This device was designed to use fission reactions, but it was not an “atomic” bomb like the weapons used against Nagasaki and Hiroshima (figures 1 a and b ). And although it was also designed to exploit fusion reactions, it was nothing like the “hydrogen” bombs tested by the US and the Soviet Union in the 1950s. Instead, conventional high explosives we reformed into a hollow shape, rather than a solid mass, to focus the energy and heat from the explosion to one point inside the shell (figure 1 c ). Small amounts of enriched uranium, as well as a source of neut- r ons, were combined with a deuterium–lithium mixture inside the shell. This weapon would have been more of a tactical than a strategic weapon, and could not have won the war for Hitler in any case. It is not clear how successful this design was and whether fission and fusion reactions were provoked. But what is important is the revelation that a small group of scientists working in the last desperate months of the war were trying to do this

New light on Hitler's bomb Rainer Karlsch and Mark Walker Physics World, Volume 18, Number 6

The Daily Mirror has made serious reportage errors in the past.

For example: Hans Zinsser is not a German test pilot.

There would be more than one Hans Zinsser in Germany.

Just one look shows that this is not a credible bomb design.

That is because it isn't a bomb design. It even says so in the article you got it from

This source is not even Ed Wood credible.

I think, I would ask for better citations. This is just my own personal opinion. YMMV.

Very well.

Because doing it in peacetime, in secret, post-war means that you have to:
- do it in accordance with peacetime rules and regulations, no sealing off areas for large plants etc
- hide the budget, so no throwing money at it
- place it behind peacetime priorities, like paying for the recent war and establishing the NHS, so absolutely no throwing money at it

Not sure how this matters anyways, as I think that you probably won't be able to determine how much the British spent on their nuclear weapon program. I certainly did not find that bit of information out. You have no basis to say either way, what kind of money they threw at it.
 
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Ian_W

Banned
Hammerdin,

I see your problem.

You're mistaking gram-level science work of doing theoretical enrichment with the many kilos of very highly enriched uranium you need for an actual bomb. The sheer amount of power and whatnot you need, let alone the supporting chemistry for uranium hexaflouride means they didn't get beyond the lab.

Likewise, "It is not clear how successful this design was and whether fission and fusion reactions were provoked." is a polite way of saying 'Not really a bomb'.
 
There would be more than one Hans Zinsser in Germany.

I did check on Hans Zissner. I am afraid he's not a pilot. And the Hans Zissner I located is an American.

However I did find this interesting ASB article.

“His affidavit is contained in a military intelligence report of August 19, 1945, roll number A1007, filmed in 1973 at Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama. Zinsser’s statement is found on the last page of the report (Farrell’s excerpts are renumbered to make his points, but the last one was left in the original):

A man named ZINSSER, a Flak rocket expert, mentioned what he noticed one day: “In the beginning of October, 1944 I flew from Ludwigslust (south of Lubeck), about 12 to 15 km from an atomic bomb test station, when I noticed a strong, bright illumination of the whole atmosphere, lasting about 2 seconds.”

The clearly visible, pressure wave escaped the approaching and following cloud formed by the explosion. This wave had a diameter of about 1 km when it became visible and the color of the cloud changed frequently. It became dotted after a short period of darkness with all sorts of light spots, which were, in contrast to normal explosions, of a pale blue color.

After about 10 seconds the sharp outlines of the explosion cloud disappeared, then the cloud began to take on a lighter color against the sky covered with a gray overcast. The diameter of the still visible pressure wave was at least 9000 meters while remaining visible for at least 15 seconds.

Personal observations of the colors of the explosion cloud found an almost blue-violet shade. During this manifestation reddish-colored rims were to be seen, changing to a dirty-like shade in very rapid succession.

5. The combustion was lightly felt from my observation plane in the form of pulling and pushing.

6. About one hour later, I started with an He 111 from the A/D (probably means “aerodrome,” Ed.) at Ludwigslust and flew in an easterly direction. Shortly after the start I passed through the almost complete overcast (between 3000 and 4000 meter altitude). A cloud shaped like a mushroom with turbulent, billowing sections (at about 7000 meter altitude) stood, without any seeming connections, over the spot where the explosion took place. Strong electrical disturbances and the impossibility to continue radio communication as by lightning, turned up.

53. Because of the P-38s operating in the area Wittenberg-Mersburg I had to turn to the north but observed a better visibility at the bottom of the cloud where the explosion occurred (sic). Note: It does not seem very clear to me why these experiments took place in such crowded areas.

893_w.gif


Atmospheric phenomena at 100 meters (test tower) of a fission bomb blast should be observable by ground observers 35 km away. The Trinity Shot was observed at least that far away by Earnest O' Lawrence.

Now look at the alleged locale of this so-called "test of early October 1944". There are plenty of populated areas full of independent witnesses who should have seen a flash and mushroom cloud from at least 30 km away, I ascertain. Where are those reports? In the US, we have reports of the blind who saw the Trinity Flash from 100 kms away.

Also, I've looked at the raid history for the area. AFAICD the only fighter sweeps and army air force raids in the immediate area near that time were 8th Air Force raids in August 1944. These missions wsre escorted by... mostly P-51s. I cannot therefore verify the above Zissner account by tangible independent evidence.

This looks like a Charles Ford type anecdotal account about the German "test". Something may have happened and someone may have Chinese telephoned the details about it, but there was no "test". Of that I am fairly certain. One might look for a conventional incident like a munitions train or ship loaded with explosives exploding as a possible explanation for the "mushroom cloud" seen instead.

Incidentally, since Zissner claims he turned north from Merseberg (located in Saxony a loooong way from Lubeck) and flew north toward the incident (1 hour by air) this story gets fishier and fishier.

Just sayin...
 
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7000m high maybe 9000m yet only 3 witnesses
No radiation detected in the 1986 sweep post Chernobyl
Maybe it was the Hush-a-Boom
@ Rocky and Bullwinkle
 

Okay, you may not know this, but the Mirror is a British tabloid newspaper known for lurid journalism of the worst kind. They are in NO WAY a reputable source! If it claimed the sun came up in the east, I would immediately start looking for independent confirmation of that fact. Using them as a source does not enhance the quality of your claim.
 
Okay, you may not know this, but the Mirror is a British tabloid newspaper known for lurid journalism of the worst kind. They are in NO WAY a reputable source! If it claimed the sun came up in the east, I would immediately start looking for independent confirmation of that fact. Using them as a source does not enhance the quality of your claim.
uh... he called it an "ASB article", so I doubt he's taking it seriously...
 

And as to power, 269,000 kW a month is what the Americans used at most for their relevant Manhattan project facilities. So. In a year?

3,228,000 kW

That is roughly 3 million kW

Switzerland alone could easily afford this. They supplied southern Germany with 500 million kW a year. 1/8th of German production.

Okay, you may not know this, but the Mirror is a British tabloid newspaper known for lurid journalism of the worst kind. They are in NO WAY a reputable source! If it claimed the sun came up in the east, I would immediately start looking for independent confirmation of that fact. Using them as a source does not enhance the quality of your claim.

That is not the only place. Certainly no the original where the claim comes from. It comes from around the web, google books etc.

I did check on Hans Zissner. I am afraid he's not a pilot. And the Hans Zissner I located is an American...

Fair enough to the last part of your post as it makes no difference to me in this regard. Although, I think the claim is for a German not an American, so I am not sure what you found there.

The part that says you can create a mushroom cloud with conventional high explosives...

Yes, but as someone else pointed out, it also claims to have been thousands of meters in the air
 
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NoMommsen

Donor
I did check on Hans Zissner. I am afraid he's not a pilot. And the Hans Zissner I located is an American.
Ofc google can find each and every Hans Zeissner ever born on this planet since 1900, at least.

Incidentally, since Zissner claims he turned north from Merseberg (located in Saxony a loooong way from Lubeck) and flew north toward the incident (1 hour by air) this story gets fishier and fishier.

Just sayin...
Well, what's "fishy" here is the ignorance of german geography of the Mirror journalist (or from who this guy has copied), who has written this part.
And the ones, who takes his notoins at face value as it suits one arguements.

Ludwigslust is NOT south of Lübeck, but south of Schwerin with the airfield (at Techentin to be exact) somewhat over 80 km away to the southeast from Lübeck.



This document "APO 696" was cited on a lot of newspaper sites ... not only tabloid.
Diminishing a document only due to it being named/cited by tabloid press is ... a wee cheap excuse.

Would be better to find this document and its content and THEN critizise its authors.
 
So your physics tells you about the state of radio telephony available to Fighter Command in 1940, about the signal degradation, frequency interference and susceptibility to atmospheric conditions... possibly also about the constraints imposed by the requirement for pip squeak following incidents such as the battle of Barking Creek?

Physics here as in EYESIGHT.

Yup, eyesight. Incompetent commo procedure, GCI scramble, and in air flight discipline aside, Barking Creek was a case of shoot-look instead of look-no-shoot. Those two guys, who tacked on, should not have been where they were when a bunch of (total of 9 from 3 separate squadrons) gung-hos out for their first live fire joy ride vectored willy nilly (or is that tally ho?) on them. "Sailor" Malan did his best, but no call sign discipline, no air battle director and so forth. Splash 2, with 1 a KBM. (killed by mistake). Lesson? Better aircraft VID, GCI discipline, and an air battle director in the air on the scene to talk flights and elements into attack vectors. Radio had little to do with that fiasco. Poor air discipline was the main culprit.

It always helps to read a post before you reply, I did not say that radio had anything to do with Barking Creek only that as a consequence of incidents like Barking Creek additional constraints were introduced that limited sector control to just four squadrons.

However while you’ve mentioned it Barking Creek had causes, least of which was poor air discipline, both pilots faced a Court Marshall and were exonerated. Freeborn, one of the pilots involved, eventually rose to the rank of Wing Commander so the action didn’t damage his career.

A single unidentified aircraft was initially reported on radar and aircraft from 56 Squadron were sent up to investigate. Radar then picked these aircraft up adding to the confusion and a flight from 74 Squadron led by Malan, who was at the time a Flying Officer (Acting Flight Lieutenant from March ’39). It was Malan who issued the ‘Tally Ho’ signal and ordered the attack, he later claimed that he issued a recall over the R/T but if he did neither Freeborn or Byrne and they attacked as ordered shooting down two Hurricanes. Meanwhile the original aircraft plotted, a Blenheim from 64 Squadron, was shot down by AA fire.

So what happened? The RDF picked up the Blenheim but also due to a filtering error picked up an echo inland. 56 Squadron were scrambled and adding to the errors, it now looked like a German raid. The inexperience and eagerness of all involved plus the flaws in CH filtering and the lack of IFF were all identified as factors. New procedures were introduced in the RDF filtering and Pip Squeak was installed in Fighter Command aircraft.

Pip Squeak – using the existing TR9 HF radio sets a timer was used to transmit a 14 second signal each minute from one aircraft in each formation and, using a triangle of receivers, the position of that formation could be plotted in real time. There was a 1 second delay between each formations transmission and as you can see there are sixty seconds in each minute, divide that by 15 seconds and you get that each sector can only effectively control 4 squadrons in the air at any time even without the radio problems.
 
Ofc google can find each and every Hans Zeissner ever born on this planet since 1900, at least.

Well, what's "fishy" here is the ignorance of german geography of the Mirror journalist (or from who this guy has copied), who has written this part.
And the ones, who takes his notoins at face value as it suits one arguements.

Ludwigslust is NOT south of Lübeck, but south of Schwerin with the airfield (at Techentin to be exact) somewhat over 80 km away to the southeast from Lübeck.



This document "APO 696" was cited on a lot of newspaper sites ... not only tabloid.
Diminishing a document only due to it being named/cited by tabloid press is ... a wee cheap excuse.

Would be better to find this document and its content and THEN critizise its authors.

NSA.
 
It always helps to read a post before you reply, I did not say that radio had anything to do with Barking Creek only that as a consequence of incidents like Barking Creek additional constraints were introduced that limited sector control to just four squadrons.

However while you’ve mentioned it Barking Creek had causes, least of which was poor air discipline, both pilots faced a Court Marshall and were exonerated. Freeborn, one of the pilots involved, eventually rose to the rank of Wing Commander so the action didn’t damage his career.

A single unidentified aircraft was initially reported on radar and aircraft from 56 Squadron were sent up to investigate. Radar then picked these aircraft up adding to the confusion and a flight from 74 Squadron led by Malan, who was at the time a Flying Officer (Acting Flight Lieutenant from March ’39). It was Malan who issued the ‘Tally Ho’ signal and ordered the attack, he later claimed that he issued a recall over the R/T but if he did neither Freeborn or Byrne and they attacked as ordered shooting down two Hurricanes. Meanwhile the original aircraft plotted, a Blenheim from 64 Squadron, was shot down by AA fire.

So what happened? The RDF picked up the Blenheim but also due to a filtering error picked up an echo inland. 56 Squadron were scrambled and adding to the errors, it now looked like a German raid. The inexperience and eagerness of all involved plus the flaws in CH filtering and the lack of IFF were all identified as factors. New procedures were introduced in the RDF filtering and Pip Squeak was installed in Fighter Command aircraft.

Pip Squeak – using the existing TR9 HF radio sets a timer was used to transmit a 14 second signal each minute from one aircraft in each formation and, using a triangle of receivers, the position of that formation could be plotted in real time. There was a 1 second delay between each formations transmission and as you can see there are sixty seconds in each minute, divide that by 15 seconds and you get that each sector can only effectively control 4 squadrons in the air at any time even without the radio problems.

Sorry, but after reading the underlined your whole argument is NSA.
 
Sorry, but after reading the underlined your whole argument is NSA.
I do not have an argument... I'm simply relaying fairly well known and documented facts. Perhaps it might help if you read up on the subject and if you find anything creditable that contradicts what I have said then please feel free to correct me. Until then I'm going to try my hardest to resist trip-trapping over your bridge again.
 
Still NSA. Since your "facts" have nothing to do with what you claimed the example proved about the RAF communications system during the BoB. \

And THAT should have been your clue why I replied the way I did.

In other words, if you have something to say about controller nodes and the BoB, don't bring up incidents that have nothing to do with the situation discussed.

Pipsqueak is IFF plotter information transmitted from Friendlies to sort from Foes. Get it?

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GCI CONTROL.
 
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This document "APO 696" was cited on a lot of newspaper sites ... not only tabloid.
Diminishing a document only due to it being named/cited by tabloid press is ... a wee cheap excuse.

Would be better to find this document and its content and THEN critizise its authors.

"APO 696" US military postal service address. So I know the claim was pure garbage from that information.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Original or ... "mother" document :
"Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb"
- report by Cpt. R.F.Hickey, USN
- dated 19 August 1945
- NARA/RG 38, Box 9-13 Entry 98c
This included the affidavit of the artillery observer Pilot Hans Zinsser, obtained by A.P.I.U. (Ninth Air Force) 96/1945 APO696, U.S. Army, 19.August 1945

... You're right. This is a postal code. The postal code for the Ninth Air Force during and after the war, from were the report of Hans Zinsser came for the afforementioned report.
So ... the "tabloid press" made the error of a false or rather incomplete naming of the according document.

But ...
that doesn't change thie content of this contemporary report.

Seems your "premature" knowledge has (once again ?) mislead you into ignorance of some possible evidence that might challange your belives.

P.S.:
I would be pleased, if you could refrain from using your beloved "NSA" as an answer, esp. in situations were no "argument" is made.
Otherwise I would have to think about using "NA³" or "NAAA" as answer to your posts ("No Argument At All").
 
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