Beating a Dead Sea Mammal: How can a non-ASB Operation Sea Lion thread be created?

If you don't get it... Just go back and really think your conclusions through. But here is another hint: decreased range with your current figures is not helping your argument at all (and it is an argument, not a worked out hypothesis), so you might want to consider your flawed opening assumptions.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
90 x 4.5 = 405. There. Now go fix the rest of it.
Exactly what @Ian Hathaway said.

And given the ubuqitous on the net available numbers for range and endureance (in miles as well as kilometers) I can't find any flaw in @Ian Hathaway statements and calculations.
...
Well, it depends a bit on what version of the Bf 109 we talk about :
Bf 109 E : 800 km => 495 (roughly) miles (wihtout drop tanks)
Bf 109 F : 570 km => 345 (roughly) miles (without drop tanks, much "thirstier" motor), 850 km with drop tanks (525 miles)
(Bf 109 G came only after the BoB)
However, all well within the claimed and/or necessary range and endurance



Btw. : It's "The Rule of THIRDS" and not of thirties, as you describe it.

This rule of thirds, as @Ian Hathaway describes it, was (and still is) used on almost every fuel driven/range restricted vessel of war, my it be an airplane, a ship a (group of ) tank(s) a submarine, etc..
 
You do know that you are trying to argue in a circle? And why quote authors who support my position? (all speeds and times are imperial measurement units for the metrically disinclined).

Average cruise speed is 6 miles a minute. 90 minutes = 540 miles. That seems to suggest a reach of 270 miles.

Rule of thirds. 30 minutes fly out, 30 minutes combat 30 minutes back. 180 miles one exclaims! Wait. Time to form up, get to cruise altitude and sortie as a tactical unit. Ten minutes. What's the tactical radius at cruise now? 120 miles. Sudden combat requiring military or war reserve power. DOUBLE your fuel consumption rate. 30 minutes at 120 miles becomes 15 minutes if you are lucky. The Germans found they usually had only 10 minutes at that reach.

QED. You haven't done the calculations and you don't understand what is happening.

As you can plainly see. The plane has 90 minutes of air endurance. "Rule of thirty" is your (^^^^) misinterpretation.
 
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Think the problem is the Bf109's might have 30 minutes fuel to fly out but if they are escorting bombers they are not going in anything like a straight line, they will have to join up with the bombers and then have to maneuver to stay in place ( bombers would have a different cruising speed, )
 
Plus the fact they will be flying out and away from the bombers keeping an eye out for the enemy, so more lost gas. Plus if they accelerate for any reason such as a false sighting that's even more wasted gas...
 
If you don't get it... Just go back and really think your conclusions through. But here is another hint: decreased range with your current figures is not helping your argument at all (and it is an argument, not a worked out hypothesis), so you might want to consider your flawed opening assumptions.
Such arrogance from someone who doesn't know the cruising speed of the Bf109 (the 6 miles per minute you used would make the cruising speed greater than the actual max speed of the 109E) and also doesn't know the range or plausible range of said aircraft. Who doesn't believe that an author such as Alfred Price, who has written over forty books including one about the 109 and many more about the Spitfire, the Battle of Britain and the Luftwaffe plus 200 or so articles on related subjects, actually knows what he is talking about when he says the 109 had a combat range of 125 miles. But obviously a poorly drawn map showing the range of the 109 to be 80 miles at the eastern end of the range arc and 120 or so miles at the western end ( whilst also omitting key geographical features such as the Isle of Wight and placing the Fighter Command Group boundaries in the wrong place) and an article on Reddit should be believed.

Please feel free to correct my calculations as you see fit and expose my stupidity whilst proving yourself to be a genius... as I'm starting to think this is what your replies are all about. I don't do games, if you think I'm wrong then point out where you think I'm wrong... and don't issue warnings as I don't usually respond well to them.

Thank you
 
Numbers don't lie. Rework them and come up with correct conclusions. As to the cruising speed of a BF-109. My data comes from from The Great Book of Fighters and the Finnish Air Force Bf 109 Manual.

Green, William and Gordon Swanborough. The Great Book of Fighters. St. Paul, Minnesota: MBI Publishing, 2001. ISBN 0-7603 1194-3

You can write as much as you want, but you actually apparently don't know the subject or understand what you claimed you have read. And apparently you like to misrepresent what you are shown or have been corrected about. You think I actually wrote the BF-109 had a sortie range of 80 miles or cannot read a map?

Yeah, you cannot apparently scale a map, or else you have made three statements you hope will not be challenged.

They've been challenged with rebuttal. It is up to you to prove as I required that a BF-109 be shown to have combat loiter time at having flown at cruise at least 20 minutes north of the Thames during the BoB. If you cannot figure it out, that is about 120 minutes in the air at cruise. Book range of 720 miles. THAT is with real numbers, not made up numbers

Good luck with that. You'll find it impossible. I'll explain why when you have accepted the truth of the situation.
 
I'm using a BETTER version than the BoB version for a reason. One of the many things you have not figured out. Implication, here, being, that:

1. You are doing your research work which is good.
2. You haven't figured it all out yet. Which is not so good. But you will get there... eventually.
 

Ian_W

Banned
I don't mean to hop in this thread very late, but what if Germans had better helicopter technology and came into the war a few years ahead of OTL? The Kellett XR-10 (1947, experimental) could carry 10 troops or so. Perhaps that's a solution to the "how do we get them there" conundrum and offers perhaps options on bringing light artillery along

The problem isn't getting 100kg light infantry onto English soil - that is absolutely achievable.

The problem is getting them the thousands of tons a day of artillery and mortar shells that they will need to fight the British Army, and that means getting said artillery shells onto the beaches, off the beaches and to the guns, none of which the Germans had very good solutions for in 1940.

I'd also note helicopter insertion without air supremacy will have a high probability of terrible losses.
 
You're using data for the wrong version of the 109... you need to be looking for the 109E.

Data for Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-3
Technical data
Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-3
data
Type fighter
Power plant one 1,175 hp Daimler Benz DB601Aa inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled engine
Accommodation 1
Wing span 32 ft 4.6 in
Length overall 28 ft 4.2 in
Height overall 10 ft 6.0 in
Wing area 176.53 sq/ft
Weight empty equipped 4,685 lb
Weight loaded 5,875 lb
Maximum wing loading 33.28 lb/sq ft
Maximum power loading 5.00 lb/hp
Maximum speed 348 mph
at height 14,565 ft
Cruising speed 233 mph
at height 22,965 ft
Initial climb 3,100 ft/min.
Time to height 16,405 ft in 7.1 min.
Service ceiling 34,450 ft
Range 410 miles
Armament
Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-3
data
above engine two 7.92mm MG 17 machine guns [1,200 rpm, velocity 2,477 ft/sec] each with 1,000 rounds
in wings two 20mm MG FF [540 rpm] each with 60-round drum
bomb load as fighter-bomber four 110 lb bombs or one 551 lb bomb
Service statistics
Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-3
data
First flight mid 1938
Production delivery January 1939 (E-1), end of 1939 (E-3)
Price per unit 100,000 RM = $ 45,000 = £ 11,250
Total production figure (all) 35,000+ (of these 30,480 during WW2)
Accepted by Luftwaffe 1/39-12/44 29,350
Production 1939 (all variants) 449
Production 1940 (all variants) 1,693
Production 1941 (all variants) 2,764
Bf 109's in Luftwaffe First Line Units 1.9.39 (Start of WW2) 850 Me109 E-1 and E-1/B, 235 D-1, unknown small number of B's (200 used against Poland)
Bf 109 E losses in Poland 67 (all by ground fire)
Bf 109 E in Luftwaffe First Line Units 10.8.40 (Start Battle of Britain)

Read more at here.


410 mrge /3.88 mpm = 105.7 minutes aloft.

Rule of thirds.

410/3= 136 miles.

Cruise time loiter at 136 miles with no fuel reserve cushion at all: 35.3 minutes at 3.88 mpm (Buzzard bait condition; 233 mph at 22,965 ft. Slow at medium altitude means dead.)

Combat time with no fuel reserve at 136 miles from base with no fuel reserve cushion at all (highly theoretical) 17.65 minutes at 5.8 mpm. (still Buzzard bait condition of 348 mph at 14,565 ft as the Spitfires can bounce from above.)

Those are the numbers crunched at best conditions for best BoB BF 109E type in service. And that is why the BF 109 is not going to be 20 minutes north of the Thames unless the LW pilot has no RTB fuel or has a death wish.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
@McPherson Nice :)

Just to add to your knowledge : Bf 109 E-7
The E-7 was the next major production variant, entering service and seeing combat at the end of August 1940.[22] One of the limitations of the earlier Bf 109Es was their short range of 660 km (410 mi) and limited endurance, as the design was originally conceived as a short-range interceptor.[23] The E-7 rectified this problem as it was the first Bf 109 subtype to be able to carry a drop tank, usually the standardized Luftwaffe 300 L (80 US gal [what is almost as much as internal fuel]) capacity unit mounted on a centre-line rack under the fuselage, which increased its range to 1,325 km (820 mi). Alternatively, a bomb could be fitted and the E-7 could be used as a Jabo fighter-bomber. Previous Emil subtypes were progressively retrofitted with the necessary fittings for carrying a drop tank from October 1940.
As for fuel needed for combat this notes of british tests on the F 4 (follow up) might give an idea of :
brit Test Bf 109 F-4 a.jpg


"Fuel for 1/2 hr combat 330 lbs"
... what equals roughly 40-45 gal of fuel, what equals roughly half of what the drop tank delivers.

IMO these numbers can be taken as a "rough" estimation of what an Bf 109 E-7 or upgraded former E-variant might be capable of range and flight time.
Evenm if given something for "just" being an E-variant IMO there's plenty enough to cover the 20 minutes fighting time you demand, dear @McPherson .
 
Nope. Consider what the first thing a BF 109E-7 has to do when she encounters enemy fighters. CUT DRAG. And that cuts into combat time 20 minutes north of the Thames after drop tank is dropped. There is not enough time before incursion to sap the drop tank dry at cruise. (^^^^). Otherwise the Germans would have used aforesaid drop tanks in the BoB to increase historically reported incursion radius from their bases...
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
I'm using a BETTER version than the BoB version for a reason. One of the many things you have not figured out. Implication, here, being, that:

1. You are doing your research work which is good.
2. You haven't figured it all out yet. Which is not so good. But you will get there... eventually.

And you keep moving the goalposts.

Lay out your calculations, including the secret mark of Bf109 you think should have been used. The onus is on you.
 
And you keep moving the goalposts.

Lay out your calculations, including the secret mark of Bf109 you think should have been used. The onus is on you.

It is funny that the post above follows by over six hours the post below

Read more at here.

410 mrge /3.88 mpm = 105.7 minutes aloft.

Rule of thirds.

410/3= 136 miles.

Cruise time loiter at 136 miles with no fuel reserve cushion at all: 35.3 minutes at 3.88 mpm (Buzzard bait condition; 233 mph at 22,965 ft. Slow at medium altitude means dead.)

Combat time with no fuel reserve at 136 miles from base with no fuel reserve cushion at all (highly theoretical) 17.65 minutes at 5.8 mpm. (still Buzzard bait condition of 348 mph at 14,565 ft as the Spitfires can bounce from above.)

Those are the numbers crunched at best conditions for best BoB BF 109E type in service. And that is why the BF 109 is not going to be 20 minutes north of the Thames unless the LW pilot has no RTB fuel or has a death wish.
 
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