Beating a Dead Sea Mammal: How can a non-ASB Operation Sea Lion thread be created?

DaveBC wrote:
Are these panzers going to fly across the channel, or swim across?

Fly of course! Once the Soviet's convince the Germans it can be done they will of course apply German efficiency (tm) to the process and air deliver an entire panzer brigade with ease!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winged_tank

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/flying-tanks-that-shed-their-wings/

https://books.google.com/books?id=z...bjAO#v=onepage&q=Christie Flying Tank&f=false

Why after the Fall of France they might have been inspired enough to throw out those 'obsolete' tanks in favor of much more rapid fire power!
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2006/12/mystery-photo-one-seriously-empowered.html Bicycle panzer for the win!

Randy
 
What about using balloons? Or better yet let GRAF ZEPPELIN (the airship) carry a Panzer Division over to England...;)
 
That would be sad./ RTB means Return to Base because your fuel cushion or minutes reserve flight time at cruise is GONE.
Unfortunately the information you have is incorrect or more likely relates to a period of the battle where the Bf109 was being used incorrectly, ie having to wait for bomber formations to form up and required to provide close escort.

There are several examples of raids escorted by Bf109s where the target distance is in excess of 110 miles which is the distance to Duxford from the Calais area.
 
If you can provide a correction, better provide a GOOD source because the record of the time says you are wrong. And by time I mean historically and in the time to form-up and escort or conduct a sweep in squadron (staffel) strength . which is what the German fighters had to do on offense, or else what good are they except as buzzard bait?

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Duxford to London 55 miles or about 88 kilometers? And on that basis, starting from Calais/Dunkerque (an extremely optimistic forward basing example, most of the German fighters bases [See above maps^^^^] were further back from the French coast.) you "try" to refute the historical observation? That's 6 of the 10 minutes of flight reserve time (~ 550-590 km/h at 5,500-6,000 m best cruise) characteristic to the BF 109 fighters available? Do you actually see where this is going?
 
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If you can provide a correction, better provide a GOOD source because the record of the time says you are wrong. And by time I mean historically and in the time to form-up and escort or conduct a sweep in squadron (staffel) strength . which is what the German fighters had to do on offense, or else what good are they except as buzzard bait?

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Duxford to London 55 miles or about 88 kilometers? And on that basis, starting from Calais/Dunkerque (an extremely optimistic forward basing example, most of the German fighters bases [See above maps^^^^] were further back from the French coast.) you "try" to refute the historical observation? That's 6 of the 10 minutes of flight reserve time (~ 550-590 km/h at 5,500-6,000 m best cruise) characteristic to the BF 109 fighters available? Do you actually see where this is going?

What he actually wrote was: "There are several examples of raids escorted by Bf109s where the target distance is in excess of 110 miles which is the distance to Duxford from the Calais area."

Given Mr Hathaway's famous ability to split hairs in service of a narrative, this is a statement that should be examined very closely. It could mean that Bf109s provided escort to bombers part of the way to a target outside their range, as happened to the early 8th Air Force raids into Germany. It could also refer to raids the following year into Russia where escort was provided by the Bf109F, which could fly 300 odd miles further than the E.
 
I'm not quite sure where you think this is going no.

The source I'm using is the Luftwaffe Crash Archive series of books published by Red Kite. It's a compilation of contemporary reports from RAF Air Intelligence including crash site reports and information gathered from interrogations plus pilot personal effects and documents carried.

According to Google Earth Duxford is approximately 40 miles from central London which in turn is 92 miles from Marquise... a typical Luftwaffe fighter base. The actual flightpath used in bomber sorties on London would have taken the aircraft close to the Isle of Sheppey and the approach made along the Thames, a distance of about 100 miles. A direct flightpath from Marquise to Duxford is roughly 110 miles. I chose Marquise by the way as it is halfway between Calais and Boulogne set about 6 miles inland, to me it seemed like the most representative as far as distances are concerned.

So to get to the point, a couple of examples:

On 13th August Obltn Paul Temme in Wn.5068 of Stab I/JG2 was shot down at Shoreham, 130 from base at Beaumont le Roger.

On 18th August Obltn Julius Neumann in Wn.1455 of 6/JG27 set off from Beaumont le Roger on an escort mission to Gosport (about 145 miles). He was shot down and landed on the Isle of Wight.
 
marquise.png


Hmm. Your evidence is rather flimsy. Planes downed 20 or 30 miles at BINGO. Marquise is one of those fighter bases I mentioned as being an extreme case (Calais to Dunkirk.).

I'm not quite sure where you think this is going no.

The source I'm using is the Luftwaffe Crash Archive series of books published by Red Kite. It's a compilation of contemporary reports from RAF Air Intelligence including crash site reports and information gathered from interrogations plus pilot personal effects and documents carried.

According to Google Earth Duxford is approximately 40 miles from central London which in turn is 92 miles from Marquise... a typical Luftwaffe fighter base. The actual flightpath used in bomber sorties on London would have taken the aircraft close to the Isle of Sheppey and the approach made along the Thames, a distance of about 100 miles. A direct flightpath from Marquise to Duxford is roughly 110 miles. I chose Marquise by the way as it is halfway between Calais and Boulogne set about 6 miles inland, to me it seemed like the most representative as far as distances are concerned.

So to get to the point, a couple of examples:

On 13th August Obltn Paul Temme in Wn.5068 of Stab I/JG2 was shot down at Shoreham, 130 from base at Beaumont le Roger.

On 18th August Obltn Julius Neumann in Wn.1455 of 6/JG27 set off from Beaumont le Roger on an escort mission to Gosport (about 145 miles). He was shot down and landed on the Isle of Wight.

As to what I think is going on, that is quite apparent. I think I have a man who is trying to nitpick his way to some kind of a point, trying to prove his case. I have yet to see any evidence that supports his case at all.

So, you will have to demonstrate to my satisfaction by time in the air, not "planes gone bingo forced down or shot down at ELR", that there were BF 109s with usable combat time over the Midlands or at least 20 minutes north of the Thames again with usable combat flight time.

But I warn you, that is not going to happen. Pilots caught there lacked RTB fuel. As did the two examples you provided.
 
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nbcman

Donor
But the RN didn't know that, and they said they would not put their capital ships into the channel as it was unsuitable for capital ships, unnecessary (50 cruisers and destroyers available) and too risky (plus they expected the Germans to do what was planned - send raiders into the Atlantic sea lanes as a diversion). It took most of the Home fleet plus Force H just to track down and sink one ship in May 1941 (the Bismark) and at the end of 1940 German capital ships did break out into the Atlantic. The Germans had broken the British naval code and had better radar on their capital ships (in 1940 many British ships had no radar) which is why the Scharnhorst was able to evade the British ships early in the war (later in the war the Sharnhorst got sunk because it was afraid of using its radar so it didn't know that it was being shot at until it was too late). So the Germans had to deal with the 50 or so destroyers and light cruisers - well they were scattered around England and on convoy escort duties so they weren't going to be there on S Day. Combats between the German destroyers (your figures are too low and do not include the "T" boats which were the same size as Hunt class destroyers) and the British destroyers in the Channel prior to 1942 usually were resolved in the Germans' favour, as the British destroyers had had most of their torpedoes removed (and had Mountbatten in command) - that's if the British found the German destroyers, who several times came close to the British coastline without detection. So to blockade the invaders the huge number of RN ships have to survive being shot at by channel guns (which got very close to hitting them and made them run away even when they were travelling at high speed at night), the minefields, Luftwaffe attacks, u-boat attacks, S-boat attacks, and the close-in escorts (which were actually of similar numbers and reasonably well armed - the British called the German minesweepers "channel destroyers"). It's unlikely that the Germans would succeed but this thread is about making them succeed, and it's not impossible, just unlikely. The Germans could build more coastal ships S-boats, minesweepers, and destroyers and fewer capital ships without upsetting any treaty requirements or the British prior to the war.
A slightly delayed response to the statement that the RN wouldn't put capital ships in the Channel. IOTL, HMS Revenge was at Portsmouth in September 1940 and crossed the Channel to bombard Cherbourg in October 1940 as part of Operation Medium. Plus the monitor HMS Erebus bombarded Calais harbor at the end of September 1940. The RN wasn't thinking the English Channel was unsuitable for capital ships by any means.
 
marquise.png


Hmm. Your evidence is rather flimsy. Planes downed 20 or 30 miles at BINGO. Marquise is one of those fighter bases I mentioned as being an extreme case (Calais to Dunkirk.).



As to what I think is going on, that is quite apparent. I think I have a man who is trying to nitpick his way to some kind of a point, trying to prove his case. I have yet to see any evidence that supports his case at all.

So, you will have to demonstrate to my satisfaction by time in the air, not "planes gone bingo forced down or shot down at ELR", that there were BF 109s with usable combat time over the Midlands or at least 20 minutes north of the Thames again with usable combat flight time.

But I warn you, that is not going to happen. Pilots caught there lacked RTB fuel. As did the two examples you provided.
Okay I think I know what might be going on here, correct me if I'm wrong though. You're posts include links etc to various sites making it easy for others to check the information you are providing whereas my own uses information taken from sources that are not so easy to check which throws doubt on what I'm saying. I could provide more examples of aircraft, raids etc that ventured beyond 110 miles however it would be pointless because, unless you have the same books that I do, you have no way of checking the information I'm providing is correct.

Soooooo... maybe just a couple of simple statements taken from authors that are fairly common which are hopefully easier to check.

The first is from Alfred Price from page 19 of 'The Hardest Day' ... [about the 109] As a bomber escort it's great shortcoming was that, with tankage for only 88 gallons of fuel, it's radius of action with an allowance for combat was about 125 miles.

From Len Deighton, page 284 of 'Fighter. The true story of the Battle of Britain' ... In 1940 the Bf109 averaged about 90 minutes flying time.

I also seem to remember reading an interview with Galland where he was questioned about the use of drop tanks and he said the 66 gallon tanks would have increased the range from 125 to 200 miles. But as I can't say exactly where that is from it's probably best to ignore.

If you let me know what books you do have on the Battle of Britain maybe we can compare notes if I have a cooy of them too.

As to what point I'm trying to make I thought it may have been pretty clear, any withdrawal of Fighter Command to enable them to regroup, refit and lick their wounds would have to be beyond the range of the Bf109. I think that would have to be beyond Duxford which is within the combat range of the German fighters. It's pretty simple really.
 
You do know that you are trying to argue in a circle? And why quote authors who support my position? (all speeds and times are imperial measurement units for the metrically disinclined).

Average cruise speed is 6 miles a minute. 90 minutes = 540 miles. That seems to suggest a reach of 270 miles.

Rule of thirds. 30 minutes fly out, 30 minutes combat 30 minutes back. 180 miles one exclaims! Wait. Time to form up, get to cruise altitude and sortie as a tactical unit. Ten minutes. What's the tactical radius at cruise now? 120 miles. Sudden combat requiring military or war reserve power. DOUBLE your fuel consumption rate. 30 minutes at 120 miles becomes 15 minutes if you are lucky. The Germans found they usually had only 10 minutes at that reach.

QED. You haven't done the calculations and you don't understand what is happening.
 
I don't mean to hop in this thread very late, but what if Germans had better helicopter technology and came into the war a few years ahead of OTL? The Kellett XR-10 (1947, experimental) could carry 10 troops or so. Perhaps that's a solution to the "how do we get them there" conundrum and offers perhaps options on bringing light artillery along
 
I don't mean to hop in this thread very late, but what if Germans had better helicopter technology and came into the war a few years ahead of OTL? The Kellett XR-10 (1947, experimental) could carry 10 troops or so. Perhaps that's a solution to the "how do we get them there" conundrum and offers perhaps options on bringing light artillery along

And the advantage over gliders is... ?
 
I don't mean to hop in this thread very late, but what if Germans had better helicopter technology and came into the war a few years ahead of OTL? The Kellett XR-10 (1947, experimental) could carry 10 troops or so. Perhaps that's a solution to the "how do we get them there" conundrum and offers perhaps options on bringing light artillery along

I'm pretty sure that Ovaron97 had a huge helicopter raid on the Isle Of Wight as part of his magnum wankfest. Not good footsteps to be following in.
 
And the advantage over gliders is... ?

Fair point. I suppose you could argue a glider+tower vs. a helicopter gives a certain economical advantage in terms of replacing expendable with reusable, but that would be negated by the fact we're not talking about Chinooks here and the cost of fuel for return trips wouldn't do much for you
 
Fair point. I suppose you could argue a glider+tower vs. a helicopter gives a certain economical advantage in terms of replacing expendable with reusable, but that would be negated by the fact we're not talking about Chinooks here and the cost of fuel for return trips wouldn't do much for you

My brother's friend flew Chinooks in the Falklands, not the war itself, but with the next rotation in. He wasn't convinced they were as survivable in combat as they told him in flight school.
 
Helicopters at that time were quite immature and problematical. Even getting large numbers into service would have been difficult with the maintenance nightmare they would have been. And they would have been very vulnerable on top of that...
 
You do know that you are trying to argue in a circle? And why quote authors who support my position? (all speeds and times are imperial measurement units for the metrically disinclined).

I’ve had a quick read through the four books I have by Dr Alfred Price (The Hardest Day, The Luftwaffe Data Book, Battle of Britain and Blitz on Britain) and as far as I can tell he doesn’t once mention that London is the limit of the Bf109s range only that the combat range is 125 miles. He does give details of the first raid on London on 15th September where the 109s had to turn back on the outskirts of London because of adverse conditions. On this particular raid the bombers took longer to form up due to cloud, there was a 90mph headwind and the formation had to conduct a running battle over Kent with 11 Fighter Command squadrons, all of which meant that the raid was more than 30 minutes behind schedule.

If you can find any other information either from Alfred Price or another author/historian that you feel is relevant please feel free to share.

You’ve stated before that Duxford is 50 miles north of London whereas a measurement using Google Earth shows it is actually closer to 40 miles north of London. By that reckoning you would say that Duxford is in fact at a range of 130-140 miles from the German fighter bases but that is not the true story. The direct route is actually just 110 miles unless the Luftwaffe decides to go crazy and detour to central London first. I’ve included a map that shows the relevant distances.
Bf109 Range.gif


Average cruise speed is 6 miles a minute. 90 minutes = 540 miles. That seems to suggest a reach of 270 miles.

Rule of thirds. 30 minutes fly out, 30 minutes combat 30 minutes back. 180 miles one exclaims! Wait. Time to form up, get to cruise altitude and sortie as a tactical unit. Ten minutes. What's the tactical radius at cruise now? 120 miles. Sudden combat requiring military or war reserve power. DOUBLE your fuel consumption rate. 30 minutes at 120 miles becomes 15 minutes if you are lucky. The Germans found they usually had only 10 minutes at that reach.

QED. You haven't done the calculations and you don't understand what is happening.

Average cruise speed for the Bf109 was actually somewhere in the region of 4.5 miles per minute (max cruise speed is more like 5 miles per minute). 90 minutes = 405 miles (stated as 410 miles in most sources). And no that does not suggest a reach of 205 miles and that is not what I’m suggesting either.

The rule of thirds as far as I’m aware relates to fuel consumption rather than endurance, you use a third of your fuel for the journey to target, allow a third for possible combat and the final third for the return journey. This is after you’ve made a 20-25% allowance for take-off and landing. So following your logic of dividing the max range by 3 one would exclaim 137 miles! But that’s not how it works. So the actual time allowances are more like, at maximum range of 125 miles, 20 minutes for take-off and landing, 60 minutes to travel to and from target and 10 minutes for possible combat. Remember most combats were over and done with within 5 minutes as ammunition was the deciding factor in the length of a fight.

Let’s assume that II/JG51 at Marquise have been assigned the close escort task for a raid on Duxford, a distance of 111 miles. The fighters take off at 13:00 and climb to the required height of 10,000ft whilst circling above base awaiting the bombers which they join at 13:10 climbing to the same level as the bombers at 13,000ft as they cross the coast. The journey to Duxford takes 35 minutes assuming the bombers cruise speed is 190mph. The fighters try to maintain a speed of 230mph whilst zig-zagging around the bomber formation as any slower would make it impossible to accelerate to combat speed in time if they need to. Fuel consumption at this speed is reduced considerably BUT this saving would mostly be negated by the extra distance travelled in the zig-zag manoeuvres. The bombing run is completed by 13:50 and the return journey begins taking slightly less time as the bombers cruise speed has increased as the bombers are now lighter. The fighters return to base by 14:25, 85 minutes after they took off.

Okay so that’s ideal conditions, no combat involved which is highly, highly unlikely. Most likely there will be a combat phase somewhere around the Thames Estuary, if this is a heavy attack it could result in the whole formation turning right round and heading for home, no problems with fuel. If it is a light attack the close escorts job is to stay with the bombers and let the top cover deal with the threat, some of which may have to run for home after running out of bullets or receiving damage. Still no worries about fuel. Now in all likelihood there is a running battle to the target so more and more fighters are having to peel off mostly due to ammunition but possibly because of fuel the closer they get to the target. But this is why they increased the escort to the point where there three times as many escorts as bombers and why the Germans sent out further fighters to cover the final part of the withdrawal.

So yes I have done my calculations and I do know what is happening.
 
Redo your calculations and get them right.

Hint: 90 minutes at 4.5 miles per minute cruise (Your figures). See what that gets you.
 
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Redo your calculations and get them right.

Hint: 90 minutes at 4.5 miles per minute cruise (Your figures). See what that gets you.
I tell you what... why don't you redo my calculations for me and tell me where I've gone wrong.

And as this is the only comment you have am I to assume that you now believe Alfred Price is right when he says the combat range of the Bf109 is 125 miles and that Duxford is within this range??
 
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