Bavarian German Unification?

One thing that's been on my mind lately for a possible TL is whether or not an earlier (by early, I mean turn of the nineteenth century, if not before) unification of something resembling a cohesive German state is plausible. What factors would need to be set in motion for this to happen? A technological breakthrough for some German state which tips the exigent balance of power? A gradual enervation of Austria? Who would be the facilitating state driving the unification--Bavaria, Prussia? Any suggestions?
 
I'm assuming this is distinct from the HRE being pulled together, though whether it means Greater Germany or not is optional.

You need some German state able to use a combination of force and persuasion on the other German states.

Technological breakthrough not necessary. Austria being enervated is probably necessary if it isn't going to be done by Austria.

Actually, that would be interesting.

If the Thirty Years War happens differently, or not at all, and the Habsburgs able to secure a hold on Germany, and increasingly build up an effective base in their dynastic lands, they might be - potentially - able to generate a situation where they can assert control of Germany.

How exactly to get there I don't know.

Failing that: Prussia, Bavaria or, Saxony, most likely.
 
Bavaria can get there if the Wittelsbachs manage to establish themselves as the leading Catholic German power instead of the Habsburgs. A medieval POD can be the likeliest scenario.

Preventing the rise of Brandenburg can help, but it can also mean Saxony taking its place.
 
Bavaria can get there if the Wittelsbachs manage to establish themselves as the leading Catholic German power instead of the Habsburgs. A medieval POD can be the likeliest scenario.

Preventing the rise of Brandenburg can help, but it can also mean Saxony taking its place.


Simplest is if Maria Theresia marries the Electoral Prince of Bavaria instead of Francis of Lorraine. Istr that was mooted.

Alternatively, have her uncle, Joseph I, outlive his younger brother Charles VI, so that Joseph's elder daughter succeeds, and have her make a Bavarian marriage. OTL, she married Saxony instead, while her younger sister married Bavaria, but that was Charles's decision (Maria Josepha was only 12 when their father died) and Joseph might have chosen differently.
 
If you'd go back far enough, you could have a HREmperor centralize Germany, like it happened with England, France and Castille. And by "far enough" I mean "about 1250".
 
If the Bavarians end up with the Imperial crown instead of Maria Theresa and her husband in the war of succession, that may well set them on the way, tho IIRC their claimant needs to live longer

Also a Napoleonic Bavaria is in a good position, so if the wars end differently they can go from there. Esterhazy was offered the crown of an independent Hungary by Napoleon so if you go down that route you diminish Habsburg power still further, whilst the Bavarians have the Tyrol as well

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
If you'd go back far enough, you could have a HREmperor centralize Germany, like it happened with England, France and Castille. And by "far enough" I mean "about 1250".

The Wittelsbachs did get one of their own on the Imperial throne, though the princes were increasingly autonomous in the 14th century.

If the Bavarians end up with the Imperial crown instead of Maria Theresa and her husband in the war of succession, that may well set them on the way, tho IIRC their claimant needs to live longer

Also a Napoleonic Bavaria is in a good position, so if the wars end differently they can go from there. Esterhazy was offered the crown of an independent Hungary by Napoleon so if you go down that route you diminish Habsburg power still further, whilst the Bavarians have the Tyrol as well

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

IIRC, one of the terms in the Treaty of Aachen/Aix-la-Chapelle of 1748 was the recognition of Charles VII's election as Emperor by the Habsburgs. Of course, this did nothing to recognize the fact that the Habsburgs were to stay the arbiter of most of Germany.

On the other hand, have Britain and Austria do worse in the War of the Austrian Succession; that could lead to a divorce of the Imperial crown from the Habsburgs.
 
If you'd go back far enough, you could have a HREmperor centralize Germany, like it happened with England, France and Castille. And by "far enough" I mean "about 1250".

I actually remain optimistic about Germany uniting in the 16th century, although it's tricky. But even in OTL, with the reformation, there was talk of an imperial navy, imperial taxation, etc.

Anyway, for Bavaria, I would suggest something in the Napoleonic Wars. If they can do better in 1813 they might have a claim on the Rhineland and Ruhr, and from there it's a short step to the Bavarian Empire.
 
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I actually remain optimistic about Germany uniting in the 16th century, although it's tricky. But even in OTL, with the reformation, there was talk of an imperial navy, imperial taxation, etc.

If the Reichsreform is not stymied by religious differences (like a reformation starting somewhere else) then perhaps we can see United HRE (Italy optional) earlier.
 
Simplest is if Maria Theresia marries the Electoral Prince of Bavaria instead of Francis of Lorraine. Istr that was mooted.
Wouldn't Saxony and Prussia still object to that due to their fear of Austria gaining even more power in Germany and an Electorate to boot? Although this way you don't have the whole succession muddle as a good excuse to object. I've got no idea of the balance of power at this point in time so would they be able to do anything about it?

Off the top of my head the only way I could see them being okay with it would be if Marie Amalia married him as in our timeline but either died in childbirth or a couple of years after that so there was an heir Maximilian III Joseph before Maria Theressa married him. That way Bavaria wouldn't be inherited by the Habsburgs, although they'd still be a bit twitchy since infant mortality rates were never that great in the time period. Of course the kicker comes when Maximilian dies childless and this timeline's Joseph II inherits the place anyway. You've just neatly sidestepped the War of Bavarian Succession with them obtaining Bavaria without even having to offer the Austrian Netherlands but at the cost of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany.


Also a Napoleonic Bavaria is in a good position, so if the wars end differently they can go from there. Esterhazy was offered the crown of an independent Hungary by Napoleon so if you go down that route you diminish Habsburg power still further, whilst the Bavarians have the Tyrol as well.
Would this be such a bad thing for the Austrians? Sure you've just lost a fair amount of manpower and some tax income but you also avoid a lot of the nationalities problems later on and make the remaining Empire much more German and unitary. Plus it could make them turn their whole attention towards Germany rather than be distracted with the Balkans as in our timeline.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Let loose a few butterflies in October 1813 and Wrede defeats Napoleon at Hanau - that would seriously both spur and fuel the Bavarian ambitions to unite (i.e. dominate) at least southern Germany and similarily leave the Prussians in the sideshow.

Regards

Steffem Redbeard
 
Although how exactly they'd become a spur to nationalism with the "mad king" is a bit unclear. Was Bavaria anymore enlightened than Prussia?
 
Wouldn't Saxony and Prussia still object to that due to their fear of Austria gaining even more power in Germany and an Electorate to boot? Although this way you don't have the whole succession muddle as a good excuse to object. I've got no idea of the balance of power at this point in time so would they be able to do anything about it?

The Prussians might be bought off. They had a long-standing claim to the "Cleves-Julich" lands on the Lower Rhine. The original deal gave half to them and half to a branch of the Wittelsbachs. However, the latter branch looked like dying out. A promise to Prussia to support their claim to the rest of the inheritance (and perhaps a slice of Lower Silesia or Luxembourg thrown in) would probably serve. Saxony alone wouldn't be strong enough, and anyway might be consoled with the other daughter of Joseph - which gives them a chance if her sister dies childless.
 
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One thing that's been on my mind lately for a possible TL is whether or not an earlier (by early, I mean turn of the nineteenth century, if not before) unification of something resembling a cohesive German state is plausible. What factors would need to be set in motion for this to happen? A technological breakthrough for some German state which tips the exigent balance of power? A gradual enervation of Austria? Who would be the facilitating state driving the unification--Bavaria, Prussia? Any suggestions?

It's possible, but you'd probably need a serious liberalization of the region; well, in the classical sense, that is. A couple of things I'd suggest: first of all, No more Wittelsbachs running around the place unless they're figureheads only. And secondly, Germany may need to borrow some ideas from other countries, like the U.S.{unless this is before 1800, France, Britain, etc.}.
And then, there's Austria-Hungary they need to deal with.

@Faeelin: In OTL, no, Bavaria was actually worse in parts.
 
The Prussians might be bought off. They had a long-standing claim to the "Cleves-Julich" lands on the Lower Rhine. The original deal gave half to them and half to a branch of the Wittelsbachs. However, the latter branch looked like dying out. A promise to Prussia to support either claim to the rest of the inheritance (and perhaps a slice of Lower Silesia or Luxembourg thrown in) would probably serve. Saxony alone wouldn't be strong enough, and anyway might be consoled with the other daughter of Joseph - which gives them a chance if her sister dies childless.
Poifect! :) The question then becomes finding a marriage for Maria Amalia.
 
If the Reichsreform is not stymied by religious differences (like a reformation starting somewhere else) then perhaps we can see United HRE (Italy optional) earlier.

IMHO, the Bohemian/Palatinate phase of the Thirty Years War is an oft-overlooked, but crucial turning point. Have everything go perfectly right for the Protestants and you might get a Protestantized Austria with the Hapsburgs kicked out, and likely loosing the Imperial crown as well.

Alternatively, have Phillip of Burgundy marry someone else besides Juana the Mad. That way, the Hapsburgs don't inherit Spain, and thus have much less reason to stay Catholic than OTL.
 
IMHO, the Bohemian/Palatinate phase of the Thirty Years War is an oft-overlooked, but crucial turning point. Have everything go perfectly right for the Protestants and you might get a Protestantized Austria with the Hapsburgs kicked out, and likely loosing the Imperial crown as well.

Alternatively, have Phillip of Burgundy marry someone else besides Juana the Mad. That way, the Hapsburgs don't inherit Spain, and thus have much less reason to stay Catholic than OTL.

Philip could still marry Joanna and still have no Habsburg Spain; like with her brother Juan succeeding his parents.
 
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